Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today on this final edition of Jazz Shapers 2024 is Anthony Fletcher, Founder of Believe in Science, it’s almost messianic, a scientific research and development business on a mission to take the junk out of junk food. While conducting research into cancer treatments at Oxford and Princeton Universities, Anthony found his love for chemistry didn’t extend to the world of lab research. Drawn to the faster, buzzier as he calls it, entrepreneurial world, Anthony joined a young smoothie brand called Innocent Drinks – you may have heard of them. Growing with them until they sold to Coca-Cola before he became CEO of Graze – you may have heard of them as well - taking the healthy snack brand to the US and into retail and leading its sale to Unilever. Looking to launch his own business and knowing UK diets are worsening yearly despite sugar reduction targets and the rise of health snack brands, Anthony took a different approach rather than creating another health food product or trying to change consumer behaviour, he aimed to use science to transform junk food starting with doughnuts into a healthier, affordable option. Believe in Science launched in 2020, soon followed by their doughnut brand Urban Legend – what a great name – which uses natural ingredients and air frying technology to reduce sugar and fat by 30% with each doughnut having as many calories as a glass of milk. You make doughnuts.
Anthony Fletcher
I do.
Elliot Moss
Do you like making doughnuts?
Anthony Fletcher
I like making remarkably healthier doughnuts.
Elliot Moss
And, and this remarkably healthier thing, hello and thank you for joining us Anthony, you studied chemistry. You did lots of other things around it I am sure to get to the bottom of how polymers are made and how things are broken up and how clever removal of fat and sugar and all these other bits and bobs can be managed. Where are you right now in your journey of where science meets business? How do you feel about what you’ve done?
Anthony Fletcher
Well, I just believe that there’s other ways to make food and I think for the last 100 years we’ve got incredibly good at making very, very tasty things with sugar and fat but I don’t think it’s the only thing to make tasty food, we’ve just got to go and discover all the new cooking techniques and new ingredients and how to make the products we love with them.
Elliot Moss
And do you do this because you love the idea of healthy food or do you do this because you’re just fascinated by the science?
Anthony Fletcher
It’s 50/50. There’s a side to me which goes, the world needs this, not everyone can radically change their diet and eat the healthiest food every day, you can’t kind of close Pandora’s box on all the foods which we’ve got used to eating but at the same time, I think I just like really hard challenges and lots of people went, you can’t make bakery without the sugar and fat, it’s just too important. That sounded like a really great challenge.
Elliot Moss
And that challenge, is there the child in you which just always enjoyed getting to the bottom of a problem and fixing it?
Anthony Fletcher
I definitely have always found in business that people will say you can’t do stuff and you’ll start going, well why and why and I’m always amazed at how few times you have to say that before often someone can’t answer you so I do think if you are happy to go deeper than other people and go and explore these things, you often find things can be done differently or there are new approaches.
Elliot Moss
And was this something that you did from a very young age do you think? Do you think you were doing this before you studied chemistry at Oxford, before you did your first job, before you were at Innocent and Graze and all these other things. Is this just who Anthony is?
Anthony Fletcher
I think I’m a little bit sceptical so when people go to me, no that can’t be done, there’s just a side to me which goes, mm am I convinced or am I interested in getting to the bottom of whether I agree with you.
Elliot Moss
But is some of that Anthony about discovering what the solution might be or is it some of it saying, excuse me I’ll show you it can be done?
Anthony Fletcher
I absolutely believe that sugar and fat is not required…
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Anthony Fletcher
…and I want to show people by making a doughnut and giving it to them and them going, I can’t believe that.
Elliot Moss
But beyond specifically that point which we will get into because I want to get into the, the techniques that you’ve, you’ve discovered and you’re replicating now. That general point around you’re sceptical and you want to show someone it’s possible, is that about the showing them or is that about solving the problem quietly with Anthony on his own going, I knew it was possible?
Anthony Fletcher
No I don’t think I’m very quiet about it.
Elliot Moss
Ah so you like telling the world, this is excuse me you were wrong and here it is.
Anthony Fletcher
And the world can change because of that.
Elliot Moss
And the food thing, obviously here we are and we are going to talk a lot about the business but you kind of got into food in your career at a relatively early stage. Was it intentionally, you just fell into it? What happened?
Anthony Fletcher
Well I think science is wonderful but a lot of it involves you know, sitting in a lab and you make something and you feed it into a machine and piece of paper comes out with some slightly different squiggles on it. The wonderful thing about food is it’s real and tangible and I also think you know, it’s something where you can reinvent it and re-discover it and it’s always changing and that’s whether you use creativity or science of whatever, it is just something which you can express yourself through.
Elliot Moss
I want to go back to the, your first job, not your first job but the job that sounded interesting to me as I was researching you, you apparently went to the offices of Innocence because you read on their packaging, ‘if you’d like a job with us come and turn up to Innocent Towers’, I think it was called Innocent Towers wasn’t it and it you went in there and they said yes you can have a job but you’re good with numbers so you are going to do some numbery type stuff?
Anthony Fletcher
They told me I was good with numbers later.
Elliot Moss
Oh did they, so what did they…
Anthony Fletcher
I know it was quite a big deal so I lived in Chester so I had to catch the train all the way down to London and I didn’t really you know, I’ve lived in lots of places but I wasn’t a Londoner so it was all you know, big and exciting and I went all the way to Shepherd’s Bush to what I thought was going to be Fruit Towers which…
Elliot Moss
Fruit Towers.
Anthony Fletcher
…was larger in my imagination than the reality of…
Elliot Moss
It’s just over the hill coming up, it’s off Ladbroke Grove isn’t it?
Anthony Fletcher
Well that is what is now, then it was a you know, it was Unit 3 on the Goldhawk Industrial Estate.
Elliot Moss
Oh wow, okay.
Anthony Fletcher
And yeah, it definitely was the right place because it had lots of kind of cow shaped vehicles outside.
Elliot Moss
Mm. Had you told them you were coming?
Anthony Fletcher
No.
Elliot Moss
Oh.
Anthony Fletcher
And I knocked on the… I had my CV with me and I knocked on the door and told the confused lady who opened it that I’d read on the bottle that this was the best way to apply and…
Elliot Moss
And what were you wearing?
Anthony Fletcher
I was, I had got, the vibe was wrong. I think I even had silver cufflinks on.
Elliot Moss
You had a suit didn’t you?
Anthony Fletcher
I was definitely like you know, yes.
Elliot Moss
Suited and booted and how old were you?
Anthony Fletcher
I think I was probably 23.
Elliot Moss
And you’d just finished university?
Anthony Fletcher
I had.
Elliot Moss
Okay. So you get on this train on your tod, you’ve got, you’re suited and booted, CV copy, was it covered just in case it was raining?
Anthony Fletcher
I think it might have been in like a leather kind of a faux leather you know, carry…
Elliot Moss
So you’re 23 and you walk into this place. Nerves for the fact that you could just get turned away and it could all…
Anthony Fletcher
I did feel a bit out of place on the Goldhawk Road in this, in this get up.
Elliot Moss
And then what happens? You go in?
Anthony Fletcher
Well they took it away and…
Elliot Moss
They took your CV away.
Anthony Fletcher
They took the CV away, the lady went away and she did, someone did come to the door and have a chat with me.
Elliot Moss
And literally at the door? You didn’t go and sit down in an office?
Anthony Fletcher
She invited me in and gave me a smoothie and you know and this sort of thing.
Elliot Moss
And then what?
Anthony Fletcher
I got invited back for a proper interview.
Elliot Moss
Did you?
Anthony Fletcher
I did.
Elliot Moss
And that’s because they were like what’s, what’s this. Did they know what to do with you?
Anthony Fletcher
I, look I’ve come to the conclusion that entrepreneurs have lots of problems in early stage businesses and people who turn up and go, how can I help you solve your problems, is exactly what they’re after.
Elliot Moss
And this, look you’re a fair bit younger than me so this wasn’t a thousand years ago, this was 20… how old did you say you were 40?
Anthony Fletcher
43.
Elliot Moss
43 so twenty years ago Anthony you tipped up. Would you tell your 23 year old self today if you were 23, go and do the same thing?
Anthony Fletcher
Yes.
Elliot Moss
Would you because people don’t do that do they?
Anthony Fletcher
I, I think it’s quite hard to work out how to get jobs at early stage businesses but you can very easily work out where they are.
Elliot Moss
So what’s your advice? How do you get jobs?
Anthony Fletcher
I, I bake a cake and turn up. So, at the very least they can’t ignore the cake and they will feel compelled to at least give you the time of day and…
Elliot Moss
Is this, is this in terms of your own personality, obviously you know people have a vision of scientist versus marketing type people or versus something else. Where you ever, you’re not a shy person but I imagine you’re quite focussed.
Anthony Fletcher
Well I, I think it’s quite difficult from a CV to work out how someone might fit in but if they turn up you can have a you know, quite a quick chat with them and you start to see, oh actually I have got an idea for a project or oh you’re willing to drive a van around, you’re willing to literally do anything well I have a huge problem. I need someone to drive a van around Belsize Park and sell us into coffee shops. So sometimes the job does not occur to someone until they meet the individual.
Elliot Moss
And when they gave you the job, was it driving the van around?
Anthony Fletcher
My job was to add up all of the smoothies we should make every day and decide how many we should make over the next couple of days and then make sure all the fruit and the bottles and the labels were in the right place for that. That was my job.
Elliot Moss
And today they probably call that supply chain management I imagine of some sort and a bit of counting as well
Anthony Fletcher
I think they even called it that then but…
Elliot Moss
Oh did they, I’m sounding like the olden days, yes Elliot thank you very much they were a multimillion pound business, it’s called Innocent, in fact Jon Wright was on the show a while ago. Stay with me for much more from my guest, it’s Anthony Fletcher, he’s the Founder, I want to call you scientist in chief as well, not that that’s your title, of Urban Legend and he was also CEO at Graze and he was also at Innocent which we’ve just discussed. Right now though before he comes back we’re going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series which can find on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders to share their industry insights and practical advice for those of you thinking about getting into an industry and starting your very own thing. In this clip focussed on the wellness industry we hear from Richard Chambers, Founder and CEO of Get a Drip, the first UK High Street vitamin drip and booster shot provider.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can catch this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your podcast platform of choice. My guest today is Anthony Fletcher, Founder of Believe in Science, a scientific research and development business – it sounds very serious doesn’t it – taking the junk out of junk food. So you go to Innocent to get the job but I understand that you really went there to learn how to be an entrepreneur? Did it teach you much?
Anthony Fletcher
No it was extraordinary I didn’t, I had this inkling that I wanted to be an entrepreneur but I had no idea how to be one and maybe because I had this very formal education I wasn’t brave enough like some people are. Just to dive in.
Elliot Moss
But you say that, you were brave enough just to dive in and get on the train and go over there and say, hello give me a job.
Anthony Fletcher
And they did pay which helped so you know, you know they did pay me and I got to move to London and I experienced something radically different to my peers. Nobody else was joining a start-up smoothie business and I thought it was incredible and you do all these different jobs and you, you really learn what you are good at and what you are less good at and you know, how does a food business work.
Elliot Moss
Mm, and what did you learn from Jon, Richard and Adam, the three Founders?
Anthony Fletcher
Oh they are all very different. They all bring such different things…
Elliot Moss
If you were to give me a bubble about each one of them, a little thought, a thought bubble right now?
Anthony Fletcher
I mean Jon Wright is the super logician, deep thinking analysis; Richard is the genius marketer you know, eloquent and has his finger on the pulse in terms of what he’s doing and Adam Balon wants to win, he wants to hit those number, he wants to land those, land those accounts.
Elliot Moss
And the dynamic, the alchemy between the three?
Anthony Fletcher
Extraordinarily it works.
Elliot Moss
And was their conflict, I imagine there was?
Anthony Fletcher
They always seemed to get over it if there, if there was and they are still friends to this day.
Elliot Moss
And the lessons you’ve taken from the, the Holy Trinity now, what do you take into your business? What do you take in, what do you talk to people about in terms of being an entrepreneur and running a business that you have derived from seeing these three brilliantly successful people in action?
Anthony Fletcher
Oh so many things but you know, you’ve got to make an amazing product and you’ve got to work out how you want to present it to the marketing consumers but most importantly you need to build a remarkable team because the odds are so stacked against you as an entrepreneur. You need to find other people who can complement you but also can bring this to life and beat those odds and, and make the impossible come true.
Elliot Moss
And how have you done that? Talk to me about your team since 2020, what have you been looking for, what have you assembled?
Anthony Fletcher
Well I’m very lucky that because I’ve been doing this a while quite a lot of people in the team I’ve worked with before so they are people who’ve come back to kind of go through it all again but you also discover new people and you know, that’s been exciting as well.
Elliot Moss
And Anthony what would they say about you? Why have they gravitated back to you? Why do they stick around with Mr Fletcher?
Anthony Fletcher
I mean I find it extraordinary because I think I’m generally seen as quite hard work.
Elliot Moss
Are you and why are you hard work?
Anthony Fletcher
Well as I said earlier, I’m quite sceptical of other people’s opinions and certain things which I’m really interested and really have to be proven to me and maybe I don’t accept certain things at face value and that can be an advantage as an entrepreneur but it can be a pain in the arse if you’re working someone and you know, they’re demanding a different level of proof.
Elliot Moss
And what else would they say about you apart from he’s a pain and he wants it proven. Give me a positive. What’s the thing that they would say, you know what Anthony what I love about working with you is…
Anthony Fletcher
He kind of wants to make impossible things happen and often what you do find as a team, you can do it but you need to start by sort of defining the mountain you want to climb however ridiculous it seems.
Elliot Moss
And those early thoughts about not wanting to be in the lab, was that more related to the hermetically sealed, it’s not part of the real world versus the endeavour of iterating and finding out what’s going on if you experiment?
Anthony Fletcher
Here’s the problem with the lab. To be a great scientist you’ve got to have a lot of self-doubt. When you discover something you don’t go, hurray I’ve discovered something, you’ve got to go, oh I might be wrong and let’s spend lots of time you know, checking that things are correct. And two, the dopamine hits just don’t come along very often. Being an entrepreneur is the opposite. You are mainlining challenges and adrenaline every day, you’re having to make decisions based on very little information.
Elliot Moss
I was going to say that…
Anthony Fletcher
But I prefer that.
Elliot Moss
Do you, do you though because is there not a little bit of attention between Anthony who wants to get to the bottom of it that needs 85 data points and Anthony who wants to keep moving forward and he’s only got 3 data points?
Anthony Fletcher
And this is why it’s difficult. I think the role of anyone in an early stage company is where to spend your time. So when should you look for 85 data points versus when should you move on and that’s you know, part of whether the business succeeds or fails. You have so little money, you have so little time, you’ve got to get a certain number of those bets right.
Elliot Moss
And that’s the art is it?
Anthony Fletcher
I think so.
Elliot Moss
You heard it here first. December 2024 Anthony Fletcher is my Business Shaper and that, that is the key. What was it like running a business but not being an owner when you were at Graze? Was that a different experience, is there still skin in the game for you from the pit of your stomach or does it feel fundamentally different when you own a business?
Anthony Fletcher
I mean I think the thing with Graze is a bit like Innocent, I deeply loved it and was interested in it so I, I’ve never felt that the skin in the game ever comes from how many shares you own in the business and I was given a lot of autonomy in how I ran it which might have you know, kind of been a, been a major source of friction but no I loved it and I cared about it and I felt responsible for it, the business and what it was doing and what it could do.
Elliot Moss
So emotionally are you more stressed now that it is your own, is that the difference versus the shares, versus the value as it were? What’s the, what’s the, what’s the emotional quotient?
Anthony Fletcher
The problem I’ve always had and I think this is quite common for entrepreneurs is I really love it and I get so much energy from it but it is all consuming and it sort of you kind of, I kind of need the stress and the excitement to power me but at the same time it costs you quite a bit.
Elliot Moss
Does it and how, what does it cost you Anthony?
Anthony Fletcher
It costs you energy and time and you know, mental resilience to kind of keep on going.
Elliot Moss
And do you manage to ring fence your time when you’re quote-unquote not working i.e. you’re with your family or you’re with friends?
Anthony Fletcher
I think I’ve got much better as I’ve gone on but I think everyone, lots of people take their jobs home with them and it’s always there in the back of your mind I think affecting you in some ways.
Elliot Moss
Are you proud of the taste of your delicious doughnuts? Is it, is it, has it broken the paradigm of great tasting food which should be naughty can also not be bad for you?
Anthony Fletcher
Well I am deeply dissatisfied with our doughnut and I want to make it better.
Elliot Moss
Are you?
Anthony Fletcher
That’s the problem.
Elliot Moss
You just keep going.
Anthony Fletcher
I can give you ten things which er, so today I popped into the Tesco in Farringdon on the way here and I bought three doughnuts and took a bite of each one and then you know, indeed the rest of them it’s because I wanted to know how our doughnuts you know, were today and some of them were better than others.
Elliot Moss
How many doughnuts are you making now a day, do you know the number?
Anthony Fletcher
Oh someone eats one of our doughnuts like every ten seconds.
Elliot Moss
Do they really and where are they made?
Anthony Fletcher
They’re made in our very super special factory in West London.
Elliot Moss
And do you go, are you one of those you know, bosses on the ground that goes and visits the factory a lot?
Anthony Fletcher
I spend lots of time in the factory.
Elliot Moss
Do you?
Anthony Fletcher
Lots of time covered in flour and different things and I have to get on the train back to Hampshire and often I just kind of smell a little bit.
Elliot Moss
Do, do people know that whoever they are in the business they know that you’re going to be deeply, deeply connected to the detail? Do they know that about you, do you talk to everybody in the business you know, when you’re watching them doing their stuff?
Anthony Fletcher
I think they know I’m very into the product and the product is made in the factory so it is all about the details of the process and the ingredients and exactly you know, how you manage that. That is the difference between an amazing doughnut and a very disappointing doughnut.
Elliot Moss
Now Richard Reed obviously as you said was a marketing genius and positioning is critical as you think about how you reframe a category and reframe healthy food. If you are Elon Musk you say that nothing matters except the product. Where do you sit?
Anthony Fletcher
It’s both as in I don’t think a marketing genius can sell a stale doughnut and similarly I think the best doughnut in the world kind of misrepresented to the consumer also won’t succeed.
Elliot Moss
And have you, do you think you’re in a good place in terms of that where, where product meets interesting framing in your marketing, do you think you’ve cracked that hurdle?
Anthony Fletcher
I think it’s a journey and you know, I am happy when people try a doughnut and go, oh my gosh this is, this is extraordinary, I don’t understand how you’ve done this you know, whether they’re from the industry or it’s just a you know, a consumer but I think it can be, can be made much better.
Elliot Moss
And for you, are you happiest Anthony when you’re in the depths of the improving the product piece, is that when you’re you know, and you’re looking at the science of it and you’re looking at how you might change the baking methodology versus the other parts of the business or has it now become, is it a different journey for you, has it reached a point where everything is interesting and everything gives you joy or rather everything gives you the dopamine hit?
Anthony Fletcher
Yeah I’m, I’m happiest when I am understanding you know, those new techniques, those new ingredients, you know the new possibilities as in I really think science can solve problems and solve some of the biggest problems and I’m always amazed how much there is still to discover and still to invent.
Elliot Moss
You’re highly educated, that’s pretty clear from when people listen to the way you answer, again what you can’t see is that Anthony’s quizzically looking and going, where’s he going with this. My point being that and I kind of mentioned it en passent, there are lots of people that come on to the, I interview that come on to the programme that have incredible education, educational credentials and there are the people that left school at 14 and they, both sets have been successful and there is everything in between. As you have now developed in your life and in your journey through working for brilliant companies and learning and now you’re running your own show, what do you value most in people around you?
Anthony Fletcher
Well you value different things because different people are good at different things and you need different things from different people at different times and in different situations.
Elliot Moss
But is there something, is there a defining characteristic regardless of those different things technically?
Anthony Fletcher
Oh I tell you what I can’t stand, ego! You know, this idea that if something good has happened it’s always you know me, whose done it or if something goes wrong it’s always somebody else’s fault rather, because I just think it’s such a shame. I think it stops so many people being better or achieving what they could.
Elliot Moss
Mm. And why do you still do this? What are you doing it for?
Anthony Fletcher
My wife asks me the same question and I didn’t really have an answer for her. She could see how it you know, it does consume me and I give so much to it and she was just a bit like, well why don’t you just pick something a little less intense which is still interesting and you know, you ask this question and I do think and I believe that there are better foods out there to be created and that’s motivating.
Elliot Moss
Mm.
Anthony Fletcher
But I also kind of like doing things which people don’t expect or proving people wrong and the industry absolutely believes that you cannot make sweet bakery goods without large amounts of sugar and fat and I want to prove to them that you can.
Elliot Moss
And you know, in this conversation Anthony what’s, I’ve just sort of realised because maybe I’m slow, you haven’t at any point talked about the money and what I mean by that, it’s a compliment in the sense that it feels like your drivers are to deliver something better, you’re drivers are to do the impossible. Where does the value might create feature? Does it even touch your, I mean of course you want the business to do well, I don’t mean that. I mean you personally, your relationship with the value bit?
Anthony Fletcher
So I think I became a millionaire when I was you know quite, quite young and the only thing I actually thought I wanted to buy was a chess set, a quite overpriced chess set.
Elliot Moss
I was going to say, wow.
Anthony Fletcher
I think it’s, it’s really difficult, I think lots of people think they want lots of money and then when they get it they realise that a lot of it wasn’t necessary but the problem is you can only really learn that lesson once you have the money, it’s a bit of a you know, attention but I’m just not that interested in things. I drive a second hand car you know, I don’t really have new clothes and,,, but I am really into doughnuts and whether you can take the sugar and fat out.
Elliot Moss
And, and your chess set, I want to know was it a very expensive chess set?
Anthony Fletcher
Oh my word, it was yeah, so I bought it from a specialist shop…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Anthony Fletcher
…just up the road from here and it’s one of these automatic ones you know, which kind of reads your moves with RFID and it’s beautiful wood and it’s a stupid price and I can only justify it because I was like you know, I, I deserve this but I don’t think I could really think of anything else I desired apart from this fancy chess set.
Elliot Moss
And now thinking about the future of the business that you’re in, doughnuts will not be the last frontier I imagine? Are there other food types you are going to go for?
Anthony Fletcher
Well I think it’s called Believe in Science because I’m interested in whether sugar and fat is really required in all of bakery, in all of sweet bakery and, and beyond and that’s why you know, the business is called Believe in Science while the brand is called Urban Legend.
Elliot Moss
Urban Legend yeah.
Anthony Fletcher
And that was always why I set it up and that’s what excited me I was like, it’s far easier to change the junk food which everyone’s got used to eating and make it better than it is necessarily to get people to change their habits. Both are important but I think it’s much easier to just to make the food better which everyone’s already eating.
Elliot Moss
It’s been great talking to you, thank you, good luck and may the force be with you. Just before I let you go Anthony, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it and you can’t, unfortunately I know we, let’s talk about the song choice you almost wanted here on Jazz Shapers but actually you went for something else. Let’s do that, what would you have chosen if you had free reign?
Anthony Fletcher
I was going to go for Free Nelson Mandela by the Special AKA and it’s because it’s the song I first met my wife for when she was a political firebrand at Wadham College Oxford and it’s very interesting there you know when you have a disco or a bop or you know, a student party you know, rather than playing you know the big number from Madonna at the end or you know, Living on a Prayer by Bon Jovi, at Wadham College Oxford they play Free Nelson Mandela by the Special AKA.
Elliot Moss
But that aside, instead of that, what have we got? Now we’ve gone back to that spot I can see it happening, I can see the arms in the air, I can see people moving around, I love that, I love that song but today here on Jazz Shapers you have chosen?
Anthony Fletcher
Take Five.
Elliot Moss
Dave Brubeck.
The Dave Brubeck Quartet with Take Five, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Anthony Fletcher. When people tell you you can’t do something, always question why and be sceptical. Absolutely at the heart of Anthony’s view of being an entrepreneur. Anthony said to be a great scientist you have to have a lot of self-doubt and here’s the conundrum, to be a great entrepreneur it’s the absolute opposite. And finally, question how you spend your time when you’re a Founder, it’s precious and you’ve got to be really smart about where and how to use it. That’s it from me and Jazz Shapers, be well, have a lovely break, see you in the New Year.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.