Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today I am very pleased to say is Rachel Watkyn OBE, founder of Tiny Box Company, creating sustainable, ethically sourced gift packaging. Rachel spent her formative years in a children’s home before returning from care to a very disruptive family life, moving house thirteen times and attending nine different schools before she was sixteen. It was while working in Sierra Leone during the military coup that Rachel witnessed the extreme poverty that drove her vision to launch a Fairtrade jewellery business. Though unable to work for years after complications from an appendix operation, Rachel returned with a new business idea, having struggled to find recycled and environmentally friendly packaging for her jewellery. Tiny Box Company was born in 2007, boosted by investment after her pitch on Dragons’ Den and to date, Rachel’s the Dragons’ most successful female entrepreneur. Overcoming a warehouse fire, two severe floods and a cyberattack and facing cancer multiple times, Rachel has, alongside growing Tiny Box, bought and developed a manufacturing business in Cornwall and Know the Origin, a sustainable and ethical lifestyle brand. It’s really good to have you with us. I haven’t had millions of people who have experienced the Dragons’ Den thing and sometimes I’ve met them and I’ve forgotten to mention it because to me it’s another thing but I guess without it, would we be sitting here having this conversation in those early day, would it have happened anyway?
Rachel Watkyn
It so would have happened anyway. Thank you for having me on by the way.
Elliot Moss
It’s a pleasure.
Rachel Watkyn
But yes, yes, what it gave us was credibility but we didn’t need the money so it would have happened anyway, just maybe a bit slower, a tiny bit slower.
Elliot Moss
And at the time did you kind of, did you know why you were doing it then?
Rachel Watkyn
No I didn’t know I was going on the show, it was my business partner at the time who was a radio presenter and he, he hijacked a radio station, did lots of things he shouldn’t have done, ended up in rehab and then came out of rehab and just said, “I’ll just come and work with you Rach” and about three weeks in, he realised that he didn’t like it and that he was used to lots of adoring fans and they weren’t waiting outside the office door for him so he applied to Dragons’ Den and didn’t tell me, thinking he could re kickstart his career and get back in the public eye and not let me down at the same time because I’d have new business partners.
Elliot Moss
So it was kind of about him a little bit at that point, without…
Rachel Watkyn
Couldn’t possibly comment. But yeah, I didn’t know about it until the BBC fast tracked us and said, “Come on the show.”
Elliot Moss
Yeah. And just, you know, I mentioned in the introduction about early life and where we find ourselves now and all the bumps along the way even before you set up that business, were you always pretty commercial even through your, you did a business kind of degree, was there always a “I’m going to need to earn a living in and I’m going to go and do my own thing” or did that just evolve as well?
Rachel Watkyn
Well my parents were, if you’ve seen the film Catch Me If You Can with Leonardo DiCaprio, that was my parents where they just went onto the next business venture after business venture, believed that they could do it but without any knowledge behind them so, they never worked and I guess that I learned really early on that if I was going to survive, I needed to be a bit more commercially aware. So, even aged five, I always had my chess pieces lined up on the chess board, not to play chess but instructing my employees what to do so, yeah, always with me, I guess.
Elliot Moss
And again, you know, the point about one’s life and hearing things about one’s life, you did spend time in care, you were in and out of different schools, all these other things. Is that, obviously it happened and it’s very much who you are but is it something that’s in your head now or a look forward kind of person?
Rachel Watkyn
I hardly ever look back. I think I’m always looking at, I think most entrepreneurs are, aren’t they, you’re always looking for the next thing, the next excitement. I don’t look back. Childhood wasn’t a nice place to back to really so, having quite a positive mindset, there’s nothing to be gained for me, I think.
Elliot Moss
But are there things that sometimes you remember and it makes you stronger rather than it perturbing you or is it literally a place which, you don’t visit the past because the past is a different country?
Rachel Watkyn
I never visited the past at all until my dad died and he told us he’d left a box of secrets under his bed and we opened the box of secrets and discovered that everything we’d been told as children was lies, everything and so that made me revisit my whole childhood journey and what had happened and it was at that point that I then wrote to Devon County Council to get me Social Services report and see the level of abuse that we’d been through. So, yeah, I’ve had to revisit a lot over the last few years.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me to find out a lot more about not just revisiting, which we won’t do too much of Rachel you’ll be pleased to know, it’s okay, we’re going to be looking forward and talking actually what Tiny Box Company is, what you’ve built and what you continue to build. We’re going to jump forward to the 2007 moment. You’ve got your business going, just, sustainability, this is all about recycled not recyclable…
Rachel Watkyn
Yep.
Elliot Moss
…packaging and I think over the years all of us have started to understand a lot more about the crisis that faces us but also the things that we can do. You said well people want to buy recycled stuff and off you go. It’s been slow hasn’t it, I mean the world has definitely turned, it was on the edges, it’s definitely more mainstream in terms of people understanding the issues around sustainability but you, and I guess that the, my point being is there an impatience in you for the world to realise how important it is?
Rachel Watkyn
I’m looking at you with a raised eyebrow because I think that we are still so far from where we need to be. It’s like we start making progress and then commerciality comes in and takes over and the boom of cheap imports so, we take baby steps forward and then we go back again but certainly, in 2008 with the Dragons, I was told that I was on a crusade, that recycled or environmentally friendly packaging would never been mainstream, it was niche and that I’d have to compromise.
Elliot Moss
And you haven’t.
Rachel Watkyn
Of course not.
Elliot Moss
No.
Rachel Watkyn
No.
Elliot Moss
But, but did it, should it be much bigger if the, if consumers understood the impact that their decisions were making?
Rachel Watkyn
I think the problem is that there is so much misinformation, so much greenwashing out there that nobody knows what’s fact anymore. If you look at the social media feeds, the news, the fake news that’s out there, how do you decipher what is real from what is somebody’s uninformed opinion?
Elliot Moss
And how, how are you trying to tackle that because it’s one thing being a founder of a business which sells recycled boxes and all that and there’s another thing changing the Meta issue, which is misinformation, which is lack of urgency, which is you said baby steps and all that, I mean you’re up against something mega here.
Rachel Watkyn
Err yeah, and all I can do is try and make a tiny difference, that’s where the name ‘Tiny Box’ came from, of us trying to make a tiny difference and we can just keep trying to be as honest as we can with our customers. I called out a competitor recently because they were putting all over their website about their eco foam and, yeah.
Elliot Moss
What is eco foam? Who knows.
Rachel Watkyn
Who knows. But I don’t think it’s quite as eco as…
Elliot Moss
Yeah. But if you had control, what would you be controlling? Apart from obviously misinformation. Who, where do you approach this challenge from? Is this at governmental level, is this at trade agreement level? Where does it go, is it an investment level, I mean it feels me that the whole world needs to pivot its version of what sustainability looks like and the way it goes through businesses because people are saying the opposite which is “I don’t want to invest in ESG funds anymore,” I mean it’s kind of macro, a challenge to say the least.
Rachel Watkyn
It was really interesting, I did a focus group about another business venture and it actually wasn’t about environmental issues or sustainability or anything like that but we ended up talking about that because the focus group were so honest with me and the eight people in there, seven of the eight people said, “Well, to be quite honest, I’m not going to make the changes until government forces me to. I’m not going to buy stuff that’s more expensive unless the government tells me to. I’m not going to do more of recycling or whatever until I’m told to because what difference does it make if I, as an individual do it when there’s another 9 billion people on the planet.”
Elliot Moss
And your answer was?
Rachel Watkyn
And my answer was it’s a butterfly effect with the more people that do it, the more it rolls out. But until the governments collectively change their perception, I mean for example I kicked off in 2018 because of the education system because I found that my god children were going to school, they were being told in school to recycle, in secondary school, and then they went to the canteen and were given a polystyrene plate with a plastic knife and fork, no recycling facilities, and I thought that maybe it was just their one school in Reading, it wasn’t, it was widespread and when I spoke to the Council, the Council said, “Well that’s because each school is responsible for their own supplies.” So, if we’re giving false messages all along, right at a young age, it’s not going to change unless somebody grabs hold of it more collectively.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me…
Rachel Watkyn
Rant over.
Elliot Moss
Sorry, no rant at all, no, no, no, and it isn’t a crusade, it’s what needs to happen. Let’s be clear, it is not a crusade, we all need to be on that crusade if it is one. Much more coming up from Rachel, my Business Shaper, Rachel Watkyn, she’s back in a couple of minutes, she’s the founder of Tiny Box Company amongst other things, which we’ll come on to. Right now we’re going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Academy Digital Sessions, they can be found on all the major podcast platforms. Mishcon de Reya’s Suman Kaur and Geoff Dragon talk about how startups can best prepare for success.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can hear this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your podcast platform of choice. My guest today is Rachel Watkyn OBE, founder of Tiny Box Company, creating sustainable, ethically sourced gift packaging. I mentioned your childhood fleetingly, which you can never do justice to. I talked fleetingly about your illness as well with the appendix and now, you know, not that that wasn’t serious, but super serious but cancer as well. What does that mean for the way that you now run your life? All those things that have happened to you and all those things that are just inside Rachel’s head. Have you changed over the years in terms of what you think is important?
Rachel Watkyn
I probably, from the outside world, run my life like a military operation and I drive my poor husband spare because I have a really clean diet, every day when I get back from work, I’m out for a run or strength training or some kind of physical activity and people say to me, “Why do you run?” and it’s because I’ve had lung cancer so, I don’t want it to come back, I want to keep my lungs as healthy as possible so, I guess what’s changed is that I’m just trying to do everything to keep myself as healthy and as well as possible.
Elliot Moss
And is that challenging every day, I mean do you, when you go for the run, do you want to go for the run?
Rachel Watkyn
Oh no. No, I hate running.
Elliot Moss
And is the military operation your form of saying “Look, I’ve got to have some control here because there’s a bunch of other things going on and I want to do my best to ensure that that stuff keeps away,” is that what it’s about?
Rachel Watkyn
I guess so because I’ve, I’ve got a dodgy gene, it doesn’t protect me from cancer like other people so, all I can do is try and help myself as much as possible and, and do my bit and I guess I find it really frustrating when I see people that are naturally with good genes eating rubbish and putting themselves on a Type 2 diabetes crusade and I’m doing the opposite of peddling like mad to try and keep myself healthy but…
Elliot Moss
And in terms of that attitude inside of all the different businesses you’re involved with, you’re you but people are built differently, whether they’ve got good genes or not, they’re not going to be as militarily, militarily disposed as you are, even if it’s a bit of a, you know, the real world behind the closed doors is you’re just another person like any of us but how do you manage difference and people that aren’t quite as up for it and clear about what they need to be doing every day, that are in your business?
Rachel Watkyn
Ooh that’s a, that’s a tough question isn’t it because I need to constantly remind myself that what success of life looks like means very, very different things to everybody and if people’s success is to be a great mum and just go to work to earn a living or to be a great partner, then that’s fine if that’s their idea of success.
Elliot Moss
And you’re okay with that.
Rachel Watkyn
And I’m okay with that. I think the only time I’m not okay with it is the, the pity trap that, that some people fall into, I then struggle with that a bit more.
Elliot Moss
I read somewhere that you said that the thing you have since, or for a while, is the feeling of being loved and your husband and the role that he plays in this kind of stabilising what has been a, you know, I think about your life and the pillars weren’t particularly solid, Rachel, you know, or even existent or even what you thought they were or whatever it was, you know there was a whole untruth and a sense of quicksand all around you and yet here you are, you kept kind of bobbing up and “I’m back” and “I’m back” but now it’s about being loved. When you think about the people that work for you, is there that in your head going “hold on a minute, if I make,” is the giving of love which sounds strange in a business context, is that part of who you are as well now?
Rachel Watkyn
Oh absolutely, yeah, in lots of ways, I’m a terrible entrepreneur because, because I…
Elliot Moss
I’d like to be terrible as well, I want to be as, I’m sure everyone goes “I’d like to be that bad.” How can we do that, Rachel? Where’s the, where’s the how to be terrible at being an entrepreneur class because I’m signing up?
Rachel Watkyn
Well I’m just too soft because I just want to help everybody and I want to love everybody and in my pink world, everybody has good intentions and so, if anyone’s suffering, yes, I want to help them. It’s not a great entrepreneur trait, it’s really not.
Elliot Moss
I don’t know about that. Love is in the air for sure and that’s not a bad thing and I think it makes you a great entrepreneur, for the record. My guest today is Rachel Watkyn OBE. That was this year, wasn’t it?
Rachel Watkyn
It was this year, yes.
Elliot Moss
Nice, nice as they say. Was that good? Did it, what did it feel like getting recognition like that?
Rachel Watkyn
Oh, the whole day was a disaster, in a good way.
Elliot Moss
What happened? Did it rain?
Rachel Watkyn
So, my husband, also being military operation, I’m always late so, he made sure we left on time, we went and picked daughter up, heading towards Windsor Castle and he had to be there by a quarter past ten. We’re nearly there and he says, “Where’s the tickets?”
Elliot Moss
Oh no.
Rachel Watkyn
So we left them on the sideboard.
Elliot Moss
And you needed them, they wouldn’t just let you in?
Rachel Watkyn
No. No, you… So we…
Elliot Moss
Did you remember your passports as well? Did you need those?
Rachel Watkyn
Daughter forgot her ID. Anyway, Princess Anne was lovely. We managed to screech round, get the tickets, get there on time. Princess Anne was lovely and we were chatting away and then my hat fell off. It had stayed on all day.
Elliot Moss
Oh no. While you were talking to Princess Anne.
Rachel Watkyn
But just when I was talking to Princess Anne.
Elliot Moss
She probably wouldn’t have cared. I think she strikes me as the most down to earth of all the Royal Family.
Rachel Watkyn
She was laughing. The photos all show that she just found it really funny.
Elliot Moss
Tell me, there’s things that you’ve done along the way, the business you’ve bought or liked the idea of it and then you went and bought it, the things that you did during Covid, ideas and lots of ideas and I just kind of go, where do those come from, what are they borne out of, these iterations and these reaching, you know your reaching out? I think, I liked this thing which I think you’re still doing, which is the Tiny Box Clinic, is that right, is that still?
Rachel Watkyn
I do do the Tiny Box Clinic, yeah.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, so you’re, basically the idea is you give people time to talk about not just packaging but their business as well. Where does that come from? What’s driving you?
Rachel Watkyn
So, 2019, 2020 just before Covid, we were at a craft fair and a woman was there with her stall, she had her products there and I said, “Oh, how’s it going?” and she said, “Oh I’m really nervous, it’s my first day” and I said, “Well, good luck” and walked out and we got outside and my husband said, “What was that?” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “Well if you’d have spent five minutes talking about your journey, you would have inspired her” and I said, “Well I’m not going to stand there giving it the big I Am at a craft fair” and he said “no, you’re missing the point. If you talk about your journey then you can help other people” and previous to that I never even talked about business or what I was doing when I was out and about and it kind of stemmed from there that actually, he was right that by talking about my journey and just having honest, open conversations with other entrepreneurs, you can help them, so that’s how it happened.
Elliot Moss
And the things you say about your journey, what are the two big things you say about your journey and what you’ve learned and what other people can take from that?
Rachel Watkyn
I think one of the biggest things I’ve learned is when experts say it can’t be done or it’s not the right way or you don’t know what you’re talking about. Often, who are those experts? And so I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learned, to not necessarily trust the information that I’ve been given. To listen, yes, but don’t take it as gospel. And I think the other thing is that we are here for such a short time on this planet and of course I’m full of self-doubt, of course I have imposter syndrome but it’s like do you know what, I’m just going to do it anyway and see what happens.
Elliot Moss
How does it feel when you’re doing something when you do have doubt, Rachel, because we’ve all been there, some people more than others where you’re literally in the act of doing something at the same time as doubting whether it’s the right thing to do.
Rachel Watkyn
Oh I’m doing that now with the new venture.
Elliot Moss
Are you? And what does it feel like? How do you, how do you make sure, how do you propel yourself forward and do the thing even while you’re thinking should I be doing this?
Rachel Watkyn
So I have two sides in my brain, with one part of my brain going “What the hell are you doing now Rach? Have you lost the plot this time?” and the other part of my brain going, “Oh this is going to be great, this is going to be huge, just try it, what have you got to lose?”
Elliot Moss
And do you believe both bits?
Rachel Watkyn
Yeah, they, it’s the dialogue that goes on all the time.
Elliot Moss
And is there ever a time when the dialogue stops? When you’re calm, when you don’t have either voice in your head.
Rachel Watkyn
When I meditate.
Elliot Moss
Oh you meditate, do you?
Rachel Watkyn
I meditate, yes.
Elliot Moss
And when do you do that, early, is that an early morning thing?
Rachel Watkyn
Oh no, mornings? You’ve got to be kidding. I do it just before I go to bed.
Elliot Moss
And for how long?
Rachel Watkyn
I do it for about 35, 40 minutes every night. So I’ll do it broken into two sections. The first part is to sort of wind down, relax, be in the moment and the second part is visualising, so I’m a strong visualiser.
Elliot Moss
I think we should all do a bit of that, that makes sense. Final chat coming up with my guest today, Rachel Watkyn. Might even do a bit of meditation as well, won’t last very long though because we’re a little bit tight for time and we’ve also got a classic from Quincy Jones, that’s in just a moment, don’t go anywhere.
I’m with Rachel Watkyn, my Business Shaper just for a few more minutes. The meditation got me thinking about thoughtfulness and you as a person where on the one side it appears that you have this military timetable, you do A, B and C, but actually behind it is someone who’s deeply thoughtful and has doubt and all the other, all the other things. Is that a feminine trait, the doubt and the thoughtfulness or is that a Rachel trait?
Rachel Watkyn
I think, I personally think it’s a feminine trait. I think women, we, back to cave days, we are nurturers and we want to keep the peace with everybody around us so, all the time, we’re trying to balance our own needs with those around us and I think men, being the sort of hunter tribe by nature, it’s more about them.
Elliot Moss
And yet, of course, entrepreneurs are hunters, aren’t they?
Rachel Watkyn
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
By definition, you’ve gone out the cave and you’re going looking for a market, you’ll create the market. So, how does that for you work, where you’re sort of in a way you’re, your thousands and thousands of years of, of development, of being squashed, if you would believe the, if you believe that.
Rachel Watkyn
Well that’s why I’m a terrible entrepreneur of course.
Elliot Moss
Who’s running a number of very successful businesses. But that, that thoughtfulness and that I suppose instinct but it’s based on your feelings, you know, my mum’s an entrepreneur and my dad used to work for my mum. I’m definitely more like my mum but I’m, I think I’m a bloke, I mean, but the serious thing around that, where does that go? How do you continue to be the hunter but with a bit more thought?
Rachel Watkyn
That’s a good question. I think for me it’s just because I am an ideas person and I’m a dreamer of always how can we make things better? How can society be better? So then, how can I apply that to my own tiny little empire and make things better within that and actually, statistically apparently, female led businesses are more profitable because we care about the individuals as well as the whole more.
Elliot Moss
And also you mention something else and I want to ask you about that, the drive beyond you finding things that you think will work, is the drive more societal for you?
Rachel Watkyn
Yeah, the drive for me is always about, is what I’m doing going to have some kind of impact on society in some way? It’s not about, it sounds ridiculous but I’ve never cared about the money, it’s never been about the money, it’s been about trying to make a, yeah, trying to make a difference and improvements in my limited capacity.
Elliot Moss
And is that, do you think going way back to now your early life, do you think there’s part of that which is fixing something even if it’s not for you personally because we can never go back and fix that but is there a bit of you that’s going “life should just be better”?
Rachel Watkyn
Do you know what, I had a thought when you said that and without getting too depressive, when I was young and I was watching my siblings being beaten up, we were standing there helplessly knowing that we couldn’t do anything so, I think that my drive has always been where I was helpless, okay I’m not helpless as an adult now so, what can I do to bring positive change? Never thought about that till then.
Elliot Moss
I think that’s what it is though, isn’t it, it sounds like that to me because otherwise you’ll, that’s, I think that’s what drives you, I think that positive change is a reaction to, as you said, what you experienced.
Rachel Watkyn
Yeah, yeah.
Elliot Moss
And it’s sort of converting that, that very difficult reality into something really, really positive and that is, if that, that new thesis which we’ve just developed right here, right now here on Jazz Shapers, we didn’t know it was going to go that way, how do you see that going forward? Is it just going to continue to be well what, am I doing something which will improve the overall situation of people generally will be positive?
Rachel Watkyn
So, I can’t go into too much detail but my next project is to tackle loneliness.
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Rachel Watkyn
Which is a huge issue in this country. Huge. Well, it’s a worldwide issue. Apparently, one in three people, one in three adults has not had a meaningful conversation in the last week. The levels of loneliness and isolation in an era of social media have never been so high so, yeah, this time I’m going big.
Elliot Moss
I mean you are going really big. Listen, it’s been brilliant talking to you even for a short period of time. Good luck.
Rachel Watkyn
Thank you, I’m going to need it.
Elliot Moss
Fixing loneliness, I mean, you know, as you do, as you do.
Rachel Watkyn
Yeah, yeah, why not.
Elliot Moss
Give you a couple of weeks, you can come back and tell me how it went. No, it’s brilliant, and it’s obviously it’s a mammoth, a mammoth issue, as is the environment by the way, I mean these are, these are quite big things.
Rachel Watkyn
They are, aren’t they. One step at a time.
Elliot Moss
You haven’t chosen small things to address here, Rachel.
Rachel Watkyn
No. No.
Elliot Moss
That’s alright though. You’re only, as you said, “We’re not here for that long” so, may as well, may as well go big, and you have. Just before I let you go, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it.
Rachel Watkyn
So, I chose Nina Simone and the reason I did was from The Thomas Crown Affair, the film, and I just thought that the film was brilliant and it’s a really powerful song, Sinnerman, really powerful.
Elliot Moss
That was Sinnerman from Nina Simone, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Rachel Watkyn. She talked about not trusting the information you’re given. We are in a misinformation age and make sure that you’re super clear what you’re hearing is actually true. She questioned, who are the experts when they’re telling you not to do something? Make sure you’re absolutely happy to go against what quote unquote “the experts” are saying because she has been. The dual voices of doubt in one ear and “just do it” in the other, totally normal and totally what she experiences and I bet you do too from time to time. And finally, what is really driving Rachel? This thought that actually it’s all about having a positive impact on society beyond everything else and beyond the money especially. Great stuff. That’s it from me and Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.