Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today I’m very pleased to say is Sandrine Zhang Ferron – I hope I got that right, she’ll tell me afterwards if I did - Founder and CEO of Vinterior, the online vintage and pre-owned furniture marketplace with a million hidden gems. Growing up in China and France it was while working in finance in London that Sandrine found herself scouring vintage dealers for a particular piece of designer furniture to match apparently her cat’s yellow eyes. Frustrated with the time it took and how you couldn’t be sure if furniture sold online was authentic, Sandrine realised there was a need for an online marketplace where time stretched people could more easily search and buy pre-owned furniture and homeware, not to mention spend hours looking for it and having fun. In 2015 Sandrine quit her job and the following year she taught herself to code, launching with friend Leslie Fournier who has since left the company, the initial iteration of Vinterior. Aiming to offer a more sustainable alternative to the environmental impacts of fast furniture, Vinterior now offers curated vintage, antique and second-hand furniture, art and home décor, bringing together over 15,000 independent sellers – that’s hot off the press – from more than thirty countries. I was really happy when you launched your business, it was back when 2015 we said, yeah 16.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yes.
Elliot Moss
2016. Was it fun setting up a business coming out of the world of finance? Truthfully, now you’re looking back.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Great fun, great fun because you know I think finance is quite um it’s a creative world and um it’s been my 1.59 job when I was sales on 2.01 desk, it was very competitive, really macho um and really they give us little information as possible if you’ve made a competitor and then when um, I decided to learn to code to, to start Vinterior I got immersed in the tech world where I discovered open source how you know, how that company who are exchanging employees to share 2.26 that was like you know, like oh my god how is that possible. So it was really refreshing, refreshing yeah.
Elliot Moss
What made you go into finance in the first place?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
So I started my Grandénicol which is kind of University in 2003. So you know at the time was trade, trader everything, it was very cool which might be strange for people listening today but I think that was probably the best you could get out of business school so I really was dreaming um, about becoming a trader and doing very high stake transactions so I specialised in um, in market finance sort of learning about option and 3.02 and had an internship in London to, to complete my degree. It was a six month internship and they offered me a job in the end so you know, I came 2007 and I stayed since.
Elliot Moss
Do you think that your childhood, you were born in China but you went to France I think at the age of five?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Correct.
Elliot Moss
Do you think and look communist China as was and then still now I guess, is such a different for you know, you obviously, you grew up in, in China at a very young age. Very different to growing up in France. Very different to growing up in the UK. Do you think that sense of simplicity of your life, your parents wouldn’t have been from the same world, do you think you were running towards something and away from something? Is that, if you, have you ever analysed why you wanted to earn you know, I mean it’s a lot of money in finance.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Was it by chance or was there something a little bit deeper?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Obviously I wanted to run away from my parent’s life.
Elliot Moss
Did you though?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um, no I think you know, my parents grew up in a very difficult conditions um in China. Obviously my dad always told me a story about how he had to eat you know, tree bark because when they didn’t have any food and so there was, they always was working very hard and when um, they went to France they had to do a lot of sacrifices so you know between um, the age of 2 or 4 I stayed at my aunt’s in China when my parents were in France because they couldn’t bring me over and then when I came at 5, I just you know, I could see them trying to juggle different work despite being highly educated um, my dad had a PhD 4.41 they were like you know, sometimes taking shifts at restaurants so it really I think taught me obviously the importance of hard work but also when you really want to a rich financial independence so that I didn’t have to you know, just count all the coins and just like could get all the discount if you are going to the grocery so and I really wanted to so just get out of um, my city so I grew up in Lille which is not such a small city but it just felt really small so you know, I think the idea of going to finance in London and New York just made like the other world more accessible.
Elliot Moss
Obviously what you just said talked about in terms of that need for financial independence, that need for, for earning money. What you discovered as you is that that wasn’t really working for you. The moving to the world of design. Why? I mean obviously you saw a gap and you wanted to buy this yellow chair, we’ll come on to that and all that but was, was it just that or was there something else that was bigger over the years that have occurred to you about that world? Was it simply opportunistic?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Uh yeah it’s a, it’s a good question because if you had asked you know, told me ten years ago that I would be running a furniture business I wouldn’t have believed you um I think now working in finance was intellectually challenging so I learned a lot but after eight years it just felt like you know, I had reached what I wanted to get out of it which was learning and realised that just spending the rest of my life making rich people richer was not really something I wanted to think about you know, until the day I die um so…
Elliot Moss
And the money for you, just as a, as a thing, the money for you itself you know at some point does it just not impact how you’re feeling about the world and I don’t mean that because you were rich beyond your wildest dreams but because was there a connection with the money or was it was starting to be irrelevant and unimportant to you?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um I think definitely I think to, you know to quit my job and start a business um that was made possible because I had you know like savings from my, from my job so it just make it easier as a decision and I think you know once, I remember I spent my, my first bonus buying a um Valencia bag and then I bought some like nice shoes but then it just became really boring, not that exciting anymore so maybe I realised I kind of naturally had what I needed um and just wanted something a bit more fulfilling um, feeling that um you know, again I think just thinking about this that I could think okay I have made a good use of my time and have no regrets and um…
Elliot Moss
That was a real thought process was it? That actual point about you know, I want to leave a mark on the world?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um…
Elliot Moss
Because often I meet people and they do say that but with you I think you kind of go, I didn’t want to do the finance thing but I am not sure you had this grand mission to save you know, millions of tonnes of furniture from landfill even though that’s what you’re doing now.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Was it, but was it just, just it did evolve?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yeah it just came a bit organically I think because at the same time um I had just moved home. We used to live in this you know, a more modern style flat in Shoreditch um, we exposed brick you know, bigger windows and like with quite modern furniture um we moved to our current place in Highbury which was like you know, really our kind of family home forever.
Elliot Moss
The home of football as well if you’re an arsenal fan like me.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yeah exactly that.
Elliot Moss
For the record Sandrine, yes, yes.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yes and we are arsenal supporters as well.
Elliot Moss
Excellent you can stay.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um, and um so my modern furniture wouldn’t fit in the new space and um I spent a lot of time trying to, trying to sell some of them on modern furniture, I had some bad experiences with you know, someone I think who had bought a lamp on Ebay from me came and wiped his muddy boots on my, on my carpet and like lock himself in the toilet for fifty minutes, I thought okay, that’s not really worth it um and also I thinking okay, I want to have something a bit more unique for our family home. I don’t want to keep going to buy some flat pack where I know that most of the neighbour are going to have the same and um, as you mentioned it took me three months to find this perfect little armchair to match my cat’s eyes and that’s okay, that’s very not efficient how can we make it better and um, I didn’t realise but you know, in each neighbourhood the 9.29 local antique 9.31 shops but they are not really um visible online and if you walk into the shop maybe you will find fifty or two hundred product at best so it is really hard to find the perfect piece when you are looking to buy something so I just trying to find a way to, to make it more efficient and bring it altogether online.
Elliot Moss
And we are going to hear exactly how you did that very shortly. Zandrine Zhang Ferron is my Business Shaper, she will be back in a couple of minutes. Right now we are going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series which can be found on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders who share their industry insights and practical advice ideal for those of you thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip focussed on the fashion industry we hear from Eshita Kabra-Davies, Founder of peer to peer fashion rental app, By Rotation.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast. I always want to go ‘ta da’ after that and I just did then because I just can’t resist, sorry. And you can hear this very programme again if you put ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your favourite podcast platform. My guest today, I hope you have been listening is Sandrine Zhang Ferron, Founder and CEO of Vinterior, the online vintage and pre-owned furniture marketplace. So we were listening before to you talking about all this time it took to find the yellow chair, really there must be a better way. What I love about, when I researched you was the fact you went, ‘yeah and then I learnt how to code’. Of course you did I mean obviously. I learnt how to code and then that gave me the ability to kind of figure out what this thing might start to look like and as I looked around some other things I read about you and I watched you um Sandrine, I thought, you like learning. You are a voracious learner. Where is that from? Why?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um yeah I do like learning and do like a boot camp so including boot camp 12.17 um, where it’s coming from I mean I was an only child, I mean I am an only child so you know, I just spent a lot of time reading um so maybe that is where it’s coming from. I get bored very easily so maybe that’s also why, a way to just keep things interesting.
Elliot Moss
And, and when you learnt how to code and you suddenly went, hold on a minute there’s a way of doing this. Was this your sort of love affair with technology?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um…
Elliot Moss
Or had you already become a bit of a techo, techno fan?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
So yeah I didn’t know anything about tech but um when I got the idea for Vinterior I ask one of my friend who is a VC um like his advice on getting the tech created because you know, I could use something like Shopify but that will have 13.09 for seller side which is 13.11 so thinking like should I hire a developer, work with an agency and he said, ‘why don’t you learn to code’ you know, ‘you will decide if you find it interesting’.
Elliot Moss
Which language was it, Python or something?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um, ruby mostly.
Elliot Moss
Ruby.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
And obviously HTML for the font and JavaScript.
Elliot Moss
And what does Ruby do?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
It’s a, it’s a framework, Ruby on Rails which I think people would describe it as a very pretty language, it’s really like, sounds like a plain English so it’s quite easy to read and um, so I did a three months coding boot camp and um…
Elliot Moss
You enjoyed it?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
I loved it you know, with coding there is always a, an answer so always a solution um, that’s what was probably the easiest part of the business you know because you don’t have to deal with people.
Elliot Moss
I was going to ask you the, yeah tell me about the people thing. Obviously you’re half joking but what is it that you find trickier with people versus code. She’s now worried about how honest she’s going to be.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
No as I said you know with code there is always a solution. It’s not black and white with people right and I think my, my biggest high and my lowest low have also been related to people. I start with a positive right, I think whenever I’ve seen customer, said I’ve been really happy about the service and like the impact made on their life, I’ve seen a team member grow and you know, really develop in the role, has been the most satisfying part of the job but at the same time, I think like some nightless sleeps or you know, anxiety um I had has really been related to um two people but I think it’s like about how my relationship with people and how I learn about myself and my initial reactions to seeing how they evolve so yeah. All part of a learning process.
Elliot Moss
The other thing you’ve obviously learnt apart from the coding which sounds like fun and you like it more than humans because you know, they don’t get upset, coding, lines of code is the world of design. I mean there’s one thing liking a yellow chair, there’s another thing having an eye for all the other things that you sell. Are you in to that? Have you enjoyed that journey of learning about different designers and learning about different um eras or is it just the product and you’re not really connected?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yeah there I really enjoyed it just simply because 15.33 creating a platform, I 15.37 themself, myself so you know I learned a lot about different designers, era’s, words I’d never heard before so I think yeah it was really interesting and to try and understand more about like how some designer or like trend influence others but yeah I wouldn’t say I am a, I am an expert.
Elliot Moss
No.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Far from that so we need to rely on the expertise of our, of our dealers.
Elliot Moss
And why do you think Vinterior has done so well because it’s a busy marketplace. What is special about the way it works, what have you designed to help this business grow and has grown and you’ve, you’re very well funded, you’ve raised money significantly, you’ve done a deal with Channel 4 Ventures not that long ago. It’s all, you’re doing interesting things. Something’s happening. What do you put it down to?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Thank you I mean I think one thing I’ve learned is there is no silver bullets so there is no escaping hard work on many things and a lot of things that work at a time can just stop working so I need to find other things and I… so I think you know continuously learning and iterating and staying close with the customers, I mean like you know seller and customer is really important, like in the times where we’ve been maybe like ignoring some feedback that’s how 16.54 declined so I think yeah kind of you know making sure that the basic are here so you know, having great quality unique pieces of pre-owned furniture is very key. I think back in 2018 we tried to add new furniture because some of our customer wanted that and we ended up realising it was a mistake and diluting what we wanted to do so we regretted the decision um and obviously you know, making sure that um the service the customer receive and seller is always aligned with market expectation. You know obviously consumer are more demanding um they expect you know, fast, fast delivery, a high level of service, easy returns, everything has to be frictionless so continuously iterating the offering and making the online purchasing experience um as smooth as possible is, is key.
Elliot Moss
You mentioned you know you’ve got to know when things aren’t working. They work for a bit and then they stop working. Are you generally a very adaptable person? Would you say that... I don’t think you are. I think you thou… I think you are good at identifying, I’m so naughty I’m jumping in but you’re good at identifying when things need to change but are you actually like that?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
I am laughing because I think I am just like restless um…
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
…and actually um you know, I think sometime I have been guilty of driving too much change and too often um and I’ve learned over time 18.24 for the team as well I think because I am getting so excited about new learning inside, sharing the opportunities that’s you know, I have made in the past some decision just to be confusing for the team maybe. Um so yeah, I would say pretty adaptable and will have made quite quick decisions 18.43 like when Covid happened but I think I need to…
Elliot Moss
Slow down.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
…slow down. Yes.
Elliot Moss
Slow down with my final chat with Sandrine Zhang Ferron very shortly and we’ve also got some music from Cécile McLorin Salvant, lots of me trying to speak in a nice French accent. That’s all coming up in just a moment here on Jazz Shapers, don’t go anywhere.
I am Elliot Moss, this is Jazz Shapers and my Business Shaper is Sandrine Zhang Ferron who is the Founder of Vinterior. I often think with categories where you are trying to establish a new behaviour it’s quite tough to change people’s behaviours from buying new furniture and there’s lots of new furniture in the fast furniture world. You in this world are doing it. There’s people doing it um I had Shosh Kazab from Kidswear Collective talking about pre-loved kidswear. There’s many people now looking at Vintage and things and it’s becoming much more mainstream. The work you’ve done with Channel 4 and Channel 4 Ventures who’ve invested time, give you time on, on air in return for equity. Has that seen an impact in your business? Is the mainstreaming, the legitimising of vintage working for your business?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Yeah massively um we’ve seen so last year we launched our first TV campaign, September and um we seen now brand awareness in our target audience increase over 50%.
Elliot Moss
Wow.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
So it has been, it had a massive and um I think you know originally our sweet spot customer are more in London and South East but we’ve seen our awareness grew as well outside of the UK so it’s great I think to have people realise that you it can be very easy to find a good quality of second hand furniture online and like, that is not just for you know, collectors or like fan of antiques.
Elliot Moss
And, and what’s it like dealing with Channel 4 Ventures which is a different view of venture capital, they are essentially saying here are some stuff we can give you for the equity we want to take. Has that been an interesting process or is it just the same as dealing with other VC’s?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Oh it’s been the nicest process.
Elliot Moss
Has it and why is that?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
I think like Vinay, the head of Channel 4 Venture is a big antique fan so he already understands um, the product as he’s a customer himself so I think that helped. I think they are very pragmatic so you know, all the terms were really straight forward um there was no long winded due diligence process so they are all very reasonable people that was…
Elliot Moss
That’s good and has that been the case Sandrine with regard to other money you’ve raised?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um…
Elliot Moss
The laugh is one thing, the eyes say something as well.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
I would say that I am not a fan of legal paperwork and there have been always many more pages and this is 21.37 I think to get to the point that we got in my view but I understand you know, like investor have also to, to protect the interests of their own investor so.
Elliot Moss
But we hear um the 2% of every pound is going to women backed businesses which is a ridiculous number, incredibly low and here we sit on International Women’s Day and we say how can that be so. What’s your experience been of being that woman raising money? Has it made any difference, has the gender point been relevant?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
I’ve not been a man so I don’t know um…
Elliot Moss
That’s a fair point.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
I think you know like probably we are all humans right so we tend to, to trust people um, we are similar to and understand the thing that we you know, it’s why in our category which is furniture um, interiors, design and 70% of our customer are women. When I’ve talked to investors who are mostly men, um I think often they don’t always seize opportunity because everything is very 22.44 and just like a few very fanatic collectors who’d be interested in the proposition whereas obviously if I am talking to a woman who has been through kind of a process of doing an 22.59 project understands the 23.02 of sourcing good quality furniture etcetera she would have more empathy for the customer problem and better understands the side of the opportunity. So I would say maybe small depending on the category.
Elliot Moss
Mm and honestly was there an impediment to you raising the money because you’re a female founder do you think because you raised a lot?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
It would be hard to, to say exactly right but um I think there have been some occasion where I’ve been at events or dinner or even like in um meetings with investor where we are bringing either my tech lead or finance lead and the investor would be just looking at them and not me but aside from that I think you know, being clear about the vision for the company you know, having a good understanding of the metrics and the gross energy of the company and having a big market 23,54 important right, so maybe woman like female founder would be maybe less aggressive in their approach to the vision so I will always maybe just 24.04 back where like you know maybe man would be more confrontable as inflate some of the number or vision.
Elliot Moss
Mm.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
But maybe it’s more 24.17 gender thing so.
Elliot Moss
No I think you’ve probably got a point. It’s been lovely talking to you, thank you. Thank you for your time and good luck as you build this, this fabulous business. Just before I let you go, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Um it’s um the Masquerade Is Over um so I love massive shows, I am a big fan of Punchdrunk.
Elliot Moss
Oh yeah me too.
Sandrine Zhang Ferron
Who has done like you know incredible show like Sleep No More, also The Drowned Man and um, so this song is kind of the, the closing song at the end of the show where all the lights start to light on the stage and um, the 24.53 takes a member of the audience and walk them out and it’s an incredible memory.
Elliot Moss
The Harptones with Masquerade Is Over, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Sandrine Zhang Ferron. She talked about her restlessness and how that drives her and the fact that she loves change but that change also needs to be tempered and her team have said pretty much that. She talked about loving coding because there is always a solution whereas with people it’s never black and white. How true is that. And finally she said there is no silver bullet, she talked about hard work and she talked about the fact that you just need to do lots of things and you also need to change when those things aren’t quite working. Really honest and really great stuff. That’s it from me and Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.