Susan Freeman
Hi, I’m Susan Freeman. Welcome back to our PropertyShe podcast series brought to you by Mishcon de Reya in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment. Today, I am delighted to welcome Bradley Baker. Bradley is the CEO of central London developers, CO-RE, specialising in large-scale complex assets. Bradley has worked in the central London office market for over thirty years. He specialises in London occupiers and their design requirements. He’s also responsible for scheme branding and leasing. He became an Equity Partner at Knight Frank in 1999 and founded and headed their central London tenant representation team. He has an intimate knowledge of what occupiers need, having advised major organisations on some of London’s largest office deals including Estee Lauder’s HQ at 1 Fitzroy Place, Swiss Re’s acquisition of The Gherkin, Guardian Media Group’s HQ at King’s Cross and M&G’s offices at 10 Fenchurch Avenue. Bradley was appointed Chief Executive of CO-RE in November 2021 having joined as a Director in 2018.
So now we are going to hear from Bradley Baker about the challenges of developing top class commercial space in central London and what potential occupiers are looking for. Bradley, good morning.
Bradley Baker
Good morning, Susan, nice to see you.
Susan Freeman
So, I noticed, looking at your bio, that you have the initials F.R.C.G.P. after your name which I…
Bradley Baker
Yes, I do.
Susan Freeman
…immediately, I looked it up and I see Fellow of the Royal College of General Practitioners, I thought oh my god, Bradley is a doctor as well as everything else.
Bradley Baker
Always wanted to be a doctor, exactly. Not quite.
Susan Freeman
So, how did that title come about?
Bradley Baker
That’s a good question. It’s um, yeah, very interestingly I acted for the Royal College of GPs many years ago, doing tenant rep when I was Knight Frank and they were a absolutely charming bunch of people to work with and we had the classic sort of decision making board and we ended up, they were in a couple of beautiful buildings but not fit for purpose and they wanted a new HQ and they wanted it but you know close to a communication hub and all this sort of stuff so, anyway so, part of my job was to orchestrate them coming out of their older buildings and acquiring a new one but they wanted to buy so, immediately not easy. But anyway so we ended up buying this building on Euston Square right by the new Euston Station and they refurbished it and turned into their office HQ as well as a hotel for members and the whole project was a resounding success and everybody was very happy and as a thank you, they made me a Fellow of the Royal College of GPs. I can’t pretend to be a doctor at all or any expertise in that regard but it was a really nice accolade of them actually, it was very sweet and I’m still in touch with them, you know twenty years later which is really nice.
Susan Freeman
It’s very nice to be appreciated by clients. So, you joined CO-RE in 2018 and you became CEO on 2021 just as we came out of the pandemic but this is effectively your second career isn’t it, so I thought maybe we just talk a little bit about your, I think thirty years at Knight Frank and what made you decide to go into development.
Bradley Baker
Yes absolutely. Yes, I mean it’s interesting, I mean I spend a lot of time, I joined Knight Frank in, what was is, 1989 and was concentrating on leasing but more and more in those days people would do leasing and tenant rep work and more and more I found myself doing tenant rep transactions that involved development and it sort of opened my eyes to you know the challenges and complexity of doing development and I guess the first one that really made me think about it was The Gherkin so we bought the site and it had every sort of complexity you could possibly imagine in that site, massive planning challenges, listed building, you know very, very challenging and I suppose that was the beginning of when I began to realise just how interesting the development world was and you know, I went on to do other acquisitions of complexity that involved you know a myriad of professional people surrounding me on the teams of acquisition, you know Merrill Lynch’s HQ on Newgate Street where we had to put the site together and the whole planning challenge and these deals would take sort of eighteen months, two years sometimes. So really I so enjoyed that aspect of doing the tenant rep aspect, you know the tenant rep deals that it really made me think but also I suppose it’s a nod back to when I was a kid starting up and I went into the sort of classic sort of leasing and then tenant rep but right at the beginning, and my father was a developer actually and he always used to say, “Well, it’s all very well doing these big deals Brad but you know they’re not your own, you’re not actually developing this stuff” and I suppose that was always in the back of my mind and I’ve known CO-RE for a very long time obviously, being in the market, David and I were both board members of the CPA, David Ainsworth, and so I knew him very well but I really got to know CO-RE particularly well when I was acting for M&G and they had this fantastic site at 10 Fenchurch Avenue, you know Eric Parry was the architect but it had a few problems, it had a rights of light, it had a ransom strip, it had a bank that was refusing to move, it had you know all these complexities thrown at it and getting that over the line you know I was super impressed by not just CO-RE but by the whole process and I think that really, that’s what did it for me, that final deal really made me think well this is really something I would just love to do.
Susan Freeman
And I think at Knight Frank you are focus was very much on large occupiers so presumably that is really helpful in the current role in actually understanding what they want.
Bradley Baker
Well it was absolutely. I mean I think you know especially you know when you’re working with the various types, doing tenant rep is really interesting because you are dealing with the principals, you’re dealing with the chief execs and the decision makers and that in alone, you know just in itself is really fascinating but of course you get a real understanding of what it is that they’re trying to get out of their buildings and you know you’re in the meetings and you can hear these execs debating it live with themselves what they want out of their buildings and the reality is that I think that the market was changing pre-Covid already in terms of what people wanted, what occupiers wanted out of their buildings and when Covid came along it sort of turbo charged all of those trends and I think it has carried on changing and I think it’s very, very easy to get it wrong, you know if your building isn’t fit for purpose, if it’s not commercially appropriate for what occupiers want at the time that you’re finishing it, you haven’t done the best job and so hopefully I’ve brought that sort of knowledge if you like about what occupiers want out of their buildings to the table but I think it’s not, it’s not a case of right well I can just rely on the you know the historic knowledge, it’s forever changing and I think that’s what’s making the current market so interesting actually because I don’t think it’s ever been you know, the occupier requirements have changed more in the last five years than it probably has in the previous twenty-five years, you know in the bad old days you build a building, BCO spec and you could put your feet up and put a board up and away you go. Exaggerating slightly but you know what I mean, it’s that sort of change and accelerated change that keeps on going and I think it’s made the market more interesting now than it’s been for a long time.
Susan Freeman
Yes, interesting, you’ve used the word ‘interesting’, I mean I think very challenging and it’s probably a good moment to talk about your occupier survey which I think you carried out in, it probably was 2021 and they hybrid model you know had been embraced and it, it was interesting people seemed to be saying they thought it was set to be a characteristic of working life over the next five years and I just wondered, I mean even in the two years since you did that survey, you know have you seen occupier sentiment change again?
Bradley Baker
I think we have. I mean I think it’s really, we actually did two, we did one in 2020 and I think we did the next one a year later and we were comparing the two, I mean you could see that the market was moving you know what they were wanting out of their buildings and I think it’s carried on moving so I think to answer your question, is yes it has, it’s carried on moving, people are now the latest sort of feeling is epitomised by the top, the financial sector where people are now encouraging their people back to work and some are sort of saying it’s a diktat and they must back to work four days a week and the sums are but what really has come out of all this I think is that the occupiers are trying to use their buildings more effectively and more efficiently and I think they’ve been very successful about that and I think there are, there’s quite a bit of speculation that people are you know getting rid of surplus office space and people aren’t using it as they were. They’re not using it as they were but I don’t think that people are suddenly dumping loads of office space on the market and the vacancy rates would support that. If you’re an occupier and you’ve got Grade A aspirational quality space, that is the sort of space that right now has a vacancy rate just about you know between 1% and 2% so that part of the market is very strong.
Susan Freeman
And I noticed when you did the 2021 survey, 35% of the people surveyed thought that in five years will mostly be back in the office as opposed to 3% who thought we’d most be working from home so, it sounds as if you know from what you’re saying, you’re seeing people move more back to being in the office provided it’s the right office, yeah.
Bradley Baker
I think so. I think that’s exactly what is happening, you know and I think most people, not trying to be desperately biased here but I think that you know most people when you’re walking over London Bridge now comparing it with a year ago or two years ago, it is a lot busier. But it’s true to say that you know I think it’s also though, I think people have changed their working patterns, so maybe you know if somebody had, I don’t know a half past 7 or 8.00 o’clock in the morning call, normally you know and it’s a video call and it’s with say Hong Kong or New York or whatever, you would normally break a gut to get into the office and then you’d be on a Teams call, whereas now I think people are thinking okay, well I’ll do that 8.00 o’clock morning call at home and then I’ll get on the train, I’ll still tackle 11.46 while I’m on the train but, so it’s working perhaps slightly more flexibly and more intelligently and I think that’s what people are doing now but there’s no doubt that people are coming back into the office more than they were.
Susan Freeman
And obviously the Press have picked up on HSBC leaving Canary Wharf, moving to the City and apparently you know taking significantly less space so, is that indicative of what…
Bradley Baker
So this is a very interesting example actually of what happens sometimes when you read stuff. The reality is that HSBC, you’re correct had a lease over a million square feet but the reality is they’d only occupied half of that for the last five years but nobody talks about that so, actually what’s happened is that they had their requirement for a half a million square feet and that’s what they’re occupying now and that’s what they’ll be doing when they move.
Susan Freeman
That’s interesting isn’t it that you only hear half the story.
Bradley Baker
Afraid so and it depends on what people’s agenda is.
Susan Freeman
Okay so you’re not, you’re not seeing demand for your buildings affected?
Bradley Baker
I think we’re seeing demand for our particular type of building affected in a positive way because for that simple reason I mentioned earlier that there’s a lack of the aspirational stock. I think if you have, you know people want to get people back into the office clearly and I think every chief exec wants to get people back into the office for lots and lots of reasons and if your office is terrace-less, no open space, you know a very boring box, you’re going to struggle but if your office is you know, great food, great coffee, nice terraces, aspirational space, great light, height, all those sort of things, then obviously that’s going to be a much more pleasant environment and is going to just get people back into the office and help and that’s what people are doing, the big occupiers now are voting with their wallets to get the best space so that they can get the best team, you know talent retention is absolutely everything, talent attraction is equally important and if you’re going to attract the best talent, being in an old-fashioned building isn’t going to cut the mustard.
Susan Freeman
So what is top of the wish list then for occupiers looking for sort of really good quality office buildings?
Bradley Baker
I think a lot is about obviously you know having outside space, I think terraces, the market proves that, as soon as you have floorplates with terraces, the rents shoot up. I think having great light and height, crucial. ESG is also really important to occupiers. The building must sort of be a good advert for the ESG agenda, and rightly so, and that’s because people care about it and people want to join a company which is, you know takes that seriously. But also companies like to be in a building where they can project their brand, you know going back to The Gherkin and Swiss Re, despite the fact they were a triple A reinsurance company, they had a very low profile in London and one of the objectives was to increase that profile via the new HQ and I think it’s fair to say that they achieved that objective with The Gherkin in no uncertain fashion. So I think you know companies are very cute on branding and really want to push their brand values. It’s not new, I mean Chrysler were doing it in New York of course but I think it’s a very competitive market and you know lawyers would, as you know, would be competing to try and attract the best people, they want to promote their brand values of that company through their building and that’s what they’re doing.
Susan Freeman
So, let’s maybe talk a little bit about some of your current schemes because I mean I don’t know how many you’re working on at the moment but there are sort of quite a few across central London. First of all, how do CO-RE differentiate themselves against others in the market, you know doing something similar?
Bradley Baker
Sure. I mean, I think you know we’ve always been focussed on central London and central London only. So that’s one aspect. You know, central London has got its own peculiarities and the more you specialise in something then hopefully the better you might get at it and so I think you know CO-RE have always specialised just in central London. So that’s one aspect but also we have in-house PM as well as DM and I think that gives us a real element of control over the whole process, I think it’s really important, you know delivery is everything in our market, so that’s really key. And also we tend to deal with a certain scale as well, you know we’re, we have quite a few projects but nowhere near as many as many other DMs would have but we’re tending to focus on the bigger side of life, so that’s why our schemes are sort of you know 80,000+ if you know, if you look at our, what we’ve got on, it’s that sort of marker.
Susan Freeman
Okay and just for our listeners, when you talk about DM and PM you mean Development Management…
Bradley Baker
All really into the development lingo so, yes, so Development Managers and Project Managers.
Susan Freeman
Okay so, when you say Development Management as opposed to Project Management, that involves getting the planning, doing the leasing.
Bradley Baker
Yeah, all other things other than the sort of the actual sort of physical delivery of it, which is over to the PM side of it.
Susan Freeman
Okay. And do you tend to sort of demolish and rebuild or sort of repurpose or does it depend on the particular circumstances?
Bradley Baker
Yeah, which is a very hot topic isn’t it right now and understandably so. I mean I think we genuinely look at everything in its own merits and that’s the way that it should be looked at, you know I think the building has to be fit for purpose, there’s no point in spending a fortune on a building and then for all sorts of reasons you’re just creating something which is an anachronism and is not going to be suitable and you know, at the end of the day the occupiers are the ultimate consumer and if it’s not fulfilling what they want then it’s not going to work. So I think number one, you have to be open minded about it, completely. There’s lots of benefits for not knocking down, obviously from an ESG point of view but also from a speed, less risk, you know those sort of aspects. But it has to have good bones, you know a really good example I think Susan is the you know 280 Bishops Gate which is one of our schemes, 280 odd thousand square feet a really good sort of thirty year old building, absolutely fine slab for slab, good column grids, the base avix were there, there were no terraces, there was only one front door and sure, some of the aesthetics didn’t look great, so we made sure it had a couple of entrances, we made sure that there were terraces, we made sure that the cladding looked great and that’s a really good example, that let extraordinarily well to Baker Mackenzie and that’s a really good example where it would have been insane to knock that building down. However, if you look at some of the other buildings, it’s much more of a challenge, you know Lansdowne House on Berkeley Square for example, as soon as you looked at the floorplate of that building, you know five huge cores, incredibly inefficient, people wouldn’t be able to talk, low floor to ceiling heights, you know poor natural light, no terraces, you know really not really what people were looking for.
Susan Freeman
These arguments all become terribly black and white and the fact, as you say, that the basic bones of the building need to be right to enable you to repurpose it just sort of somehow gets lost in the discussion doesn’t it.
Bradley Baker
Yes, people jump to you know perhaps what they want to be the answer but actually you’ve just got to sit back and look at each case, I think in its own sort of merits and weigh it up very carefully.
Susan Freeman
I walked past Lansdown House last week and it has, I mean it’s such a prominent position, I mean it basically takes up the whole of the south side of Berkeley Square. So, what stage are you at with Lansdowne House?
Bradley Baker
Sure, so we just got vacant possession at the end of June, we pre-let the whole thing to Blackstone as you may be aware and so having got vacant possession, we’re putting up the hoarding as we speak, scaffolding is going up on the building right now and demolition process is on its way, paving the way for a building that’s going to be hopefully PC’d in 2027 and that’ll be a new quarter of a million square foot, absolutely state of the art, Grade A office building and you know really 25,000 square foot sized floorplates in the middle of Mayfair which is pretty unheard of.
Susan Freeman
And did I see that the building is going to have windows that open? Is that part of the plan?
Bradley Baker
Yeah, it’s going to have, I mean literally on Berkeley Square you’re going to have windows that all step into like an external balcony, so you’ll be up on sort of level three or four or something and you’ll just be able to step out of your office onto the balcony and look out onto Berkeley Square, it will be quite extraordinary.
Susan Freeman
And what will you have at ground floor?
Bradley Baker
So ground floor, we have retail on Lansdowne Row and we’ll have retail on the north-east corners and the north-west corners of the office building, to be confirmed as to what, who exactly that is but something commensurate with a Grade A office building and then obviously a significant size entrance hall for the occupiers.
Susan Freeman
Okay well I look forward to seeing that. And just, I mean turning to the City, 20 Ropemaker, I think was it the first central London tower development to start construction after lockdown started, which…?
Bradley Baker
Yeah, there’s a number of firsts for that building actually, there’s that bit, it’s also the tallest stone clad building since St Paul’s Cathedral, which is quite something, it’s Islington’s tallest building that they’ve ever approved and it was also one of the very first big pre-lets with obviously Linklaters taking the vast majority of the building. So the number of firsts and also it has you know ESG credentials, it’s one of the, one of the very best and one of the earliest towers to achieve WELL Platinum and BREEAM Outstanding.
Susan Freeman
So how high is it? How many storeys?
Bradley Baker
23 storeys high.
Susan Freeman
23.
Bradley Baker
And so pretty tall.
Susan Freeman
And is that completed or near completion?
Bradley Baker
So, we’re finishing in September and so far so good and it’s looking, I don’t know if you’ve walked past it recently but looking very striking, fantastic sort of glazed staircase that goes all the way down from the top to the bottom of the building, trying to encourage people to use the stairs, not going in the lift, takes pressure off the lifts but good for one’s health.
Susan Freeman
Not up 23 floors I hope.
Bradley Baker
Good for you steps I think.
Susan Freeman
Very good. And does that have outside space?
Bradley Baker
Yes, so that also has balconies on the front but also has got fantastic terraces and significantly useable terraces as well, and that’s proving extremely popular.
Susan Freeman
And just you know, you’ve talked about design, you know how important, I mean I think I know what the answer to this question is, you know how important is good design and how do you choose the right architect for each project?
Bradley Baker
Good question. I mean I think obviously I think you’re right, you know the answer is it’s absolutely essential to get the right design but also it’s really important to work with some of the best architects and we’re absolutely blessed to be working on all of our schemes with some fantastic architects and we’ll speak to a number, often it’s a relationship thing, they might be particularly well versed in a certain area, they might already be known to perhaps the investor and also we may or may not have a track record with them and so we tend to, with a variety of architects and keen obviously we, one of the objectives that we want to do at CO-RE is to grow the business and we’re keen to work with more and more professional teams and you know on all our schemes we always, you know I think it’s all about achieving the very best that you can out of every site and best doesn’t mean big, it just means the best quality and what’s appropriate for that site. And you know we work really hard with a professional team to make sure that we’re getting the best out of a site, you know for the client, for the investor and actually giving back something to the public domain in the way that the building looks.
Susan Freeman
And we mentioned earlier in the conversation that you know getting planning is part of what you do and just with some of these schemes as you say, they’re large scale, they’re you know prominent sites in central London, I mean planning obviously can take years, I mean do you find that the planning system works well for you because we hear a lot of criticism of planning, does it depend on which local authority you’re working with?
Bradley Baker
Yeah, I think we’ve you know enjoyed a really genuinely successful relationship with every single borough that we’ve worked with and you know might be you know if you look at, you know you mentioned Ropemaker, that’s a very tall building for anywhere and in particular for Islington and they were extremely professional and it’s the same you know across the board really, I think that you know you get out of it what you put into it and we work very openly and collaboratively with a professional team and with the planning authorities and engage in a really good, detailed dialogue and I think as long as you’re open and explaining exactly you know why you’re proposing what you’re proposing and what the reasons are, we found that the process to be very positive, on the whole.
Susan Freeman
And, I mean is the process easier say in the City where there are very few residents, as opposed to other areas where there are more people living nearby and it becomes more of a sort of personal debate for them?
Bradley Baker
Yeah, I guess most of our schemes, we’re not that affected by residential areas because we tend to, you know we’re focussing on big office buildings in an office you know CBD type of environment so we haven’t really seen the sort of the placards from residents sort of outside so much. But sure, I mean that’s not to say that you know you’re always going to get, I mean the planning authority is one thing but you might then have further steps down the horizon which you’ve got to overcome as well.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, so it’s, it’s quite a long process. And the Fleet Street Quarter, you are active in and that is I think an interesting area between Holborn and the City and sort of where the newspaper giants used to be. They’ve moved out and you know the area is really being reinvented and I was struck by the number of developers who are active there, including yourselves, where there really does seem to be collaboration to actually you know bring back the area, in fact you know we talked about branding so it’s effectively the rebranding of an area.
Bradley Baker
Yeah, it really is and you know the bit that’s been formed, you know the business improvement district from Fleet Street, the improvements that are going to be made to Fleet Street, you know from a landscaping point of view but the pure number of buildings that are being repurposed or new buildings that are being presented over the next three years is going to totally transform that area. And it’s always been you know I think a really good spot, it’s just had a number of its buildings come to the end of their lives as it were and they’re now being very successfully repurposed. So, you know for example, you know next door to our building at 120 Fleet Street, we’re going to, you know Goldman Sachs or really there are some big plans for you know Eric Parry scheme with the Law Courts, there’s a number of other developments that are ongoing along Fleet Street, it’s going to create a really new hub I think for a really fantastic, interesting hub.
Susan Freeman
And just a little bit about your buildings because you mention 120 Fleet Street and then the Art Deco, I think the former Daily Express building which presumably you are retaining the features of, what are you going to be doing there?
Bradley Baker
Absolutely. Well it’s a really, you know it’s a fabulous building isn’t it and you know it’s always been bolted onto the what’s been around it for the last sort of 25 years and actually part of what we’re doing is to free it up because it’s, it’s you know our building, our new building, is taking its design cue from the Daily Express building and you know the Daily Express building I can remember in the ‘80s, you know you walked past and all you saw were curtains because Goldman never really used it, so it was always disused and unloved but we’re going to completely reimagine it, it’s going to have you know sort of a rooftop bar on the top, it’s going to have access for the public to be able to go in, we’re going to release the sort of you know make sure that the entrance hall which was designed by a separate architect to the rest of the building, is you know people will get to see it for the first time in a long time and it’s a real gem and we’re thinking about having maybe art galleries in some of the space as well so, you know a real, it’s basically it’s an amenity building is the way to look at the Daily Express building.
Susan Freeman
No, it’s a great opportunity and I am looking forward to seeing what you make of it. And what is the timescale on that?
Bradley Baker
We’re looking at on about the end of ’26 basically. You know, it’s a 600,000 square foot building so there’s lots of work to be done but it’s you know the architect is the Bjarke Ingels Group but again, it’s going to have all the sort of things that we’ve been talking about in terms of terraces and height and amenity and all those sort of aspects.
Susan Freeman
And during lockdown, obviously one of the key requirements for people working in offices was air quality and everybody was very concerned about you know air filters and air quality and knowing how the building was performing. Is that something that people are still very concerned about?
Bradley Baker
To be honest, I think I haven’t seen that raised in a particularly higher profile way recently. I think people are assuming that air quality you know is going to be good but I’ve not seen that ramped up by any buyer actually sort of saying you know can we have a proper investigation as to your air quality, I think it’s one of those things you’ve got to get right but I don’t see more of a focus on that. I think it’s always like whenever you know something like a pandemic or another sort of tragedy happens, there tends to be a slight kneejerk reaction and I can remember talking to a lift engineer who was suggesting that maybe we’re going to have to have bigger lifts going forwards which was you know socially distancing in a lift, interesting. So you know there’s, I think you do get these sort of kneejerk reactions which are not you know, 911 tragedy where people were sort of saying you know tall buildings were going to be no longer and within two years of course you know the record rents were all being set by tall buildings again, so I think there is sometimes that kneejerk reactions to some of these.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, it’s amazing how people move on and almost forget how they spent 2020 and I think when you did your occupier survey, so air quality probably featured quite high in the list of occupier requirements and so it’s probably moved down a little bit. One of the projects that you’re working on is the former ITV headquarters on Southbank where you are redeveloping I think with Mitsubishi and the Government called in plans to redevelop I think a week after Sadiq Khan approved the scheme, can you tell us a little bit about what you’re planning there and why it’s been held up?
Bradley Baker
Yeah so we, you know, we worked with the architects, Make, on this, it’s about half a million square feet of offices, a very prominent site and so therefore always going to get a lot of attention. We had a really good relationship with Lambeth who approved it 6:1 and then you are absolutely right, it went to the GLA because of its size and prominence, who also approved it but then unfortunately the building was called in so we’ve now had a public inquiry and the results of which come out in the summer. We’re extremely optimistic that we’re going to get the right result but it’s a shame that it got called in because obviously from a timing point of view, it’s put the, put something back and so from that aspect it’s somewhat frustrating but we’re optimistic to get the right result and hopefully it’ll be the right result of the whole of the Southbank because what’s there now is not really fit for purpose going back to what we were discussing at the beginning, you know buildings have to have good bones and to be something that people want to occupy and obviously a studio is not where most people want to have an office.
Susan Freeman
So, we talked a little bit about ESG and do you think that the property industry is doing enough and that real estate developers are doing enough to reduce carbon?
Bradley Baker
I hope so. I mean, I think you know we need to because it’s obviously what the planet needs but it’s also you know, is what the occupier wants, I mean it’s got to have credibility but some aspects you know embedded carbon is slightly more difficult to analyse but you know I think people are genuinely trying to because I think you know they it goes back to market forces really and you know occupiers genuinely want to make sure their buildings are ESG driven and so you know if you’re not looking after that aspect of it, you’re going to penalise yourself. And also you know when you look at say for example on 120 Fleet Street, we kept the existing you know basement but not you know we’re not changing that because you know that is a fantastic way of reducing carbon.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, it’s challenging isn’t it so that actually is being driven by your occupiers so that they will come along and they want to know how the building’s been constructed, how it’s going to be operated and how you can minimise carbon.
Bradley Baker
Yes because I mean you know the youth of today want to know that they’ve got a future and that those things have been thought about and you know the sort of teams that we’re working with, all of them are very you know everyone’s au fait with you know the ESG agenda and making sure that the buildings that we’re doing are ticking all of those boxes.
Susan Freeman
And you specialise in commercial sort of mainly office development, are you at all interested in residential or more mixed use development?
Bradley Baker
We don’t actually, I mean we – in a word – we have, I think we have eight residential apartments with our building called The Fitzrovia on the Tottenham Court Road, which we’re doing with M&G and I mean that’s a sort of gorgeous little building designed by Stiff + Trevillion Architects and there is, there are small residential units in that but I think on the whole, no, we are office experts and we’ll leave the residential to the residential experts so I don’t see CO-RE going down a residential route, I think we’ll play to our strengths and focus on the office.
Susan Freeman
And how are you, I mean I keep hearing about problems with rising construction costs making it you know difficult to budget and keep schemes on track, I mean presumably you’re affected by that like everybody else?
Bradley Baker
Absolutely. You know and there’s only so much you can do, I mean you know these building costs have gone up on building costs along with everything else so you know we just have to look at every scheme and its own merits and make sure that it stacks up.
Susan Freeman
And are there new schemes in the pipeline that you can tell us about?
Bradley Baker
There are definitely new schemes in the pipeline that unfortunately we can’t tell you about but we’d love to share that with you when we can. I think part of you know our job, my job, is to you know continually look forward to new business and you know we have grown significantly in numbers but also in the number of projects that we are involved in and we’ve grown that over the last few years and we want to carry on growing that and focussing on you know big, high quality schemes so we’ve always got an eye on what’s next because actually people forget that these buildings have a habit of being finished one day, so you’re building them on you know sort of you know 20 Ropemaker’s a good example but you know we’ve obviously got a team of people working on that and that’s going to be finished in you know September ish time, autumn this year, and that team will come off and will be available to plug into the next one so we wouldn’t want those guys hanging around the office not doing anything so it’s important that everybody’s fired up and ready for the next one.
Susan Freeman
Absolutely and are you seeing in terms of international investment in London, are you seeing that sort of at a consistently high level or has it been affected by Brexit or you know?
Bradley Baker
I think it’s consistently high, you know I think the sort of the appetite that we see from investors is increasingly international actually, you know ITV with Mitsubishi is a very good example, Chinese Estates on Fleet Street is another great example, we’re certainly not seeing any sort of fall off in appetite from international investors, especially for what the sort of project that we’re producing, you know the aspirational space but obviously you know right now there are some interesting challenges aren’t there in terms of values and people have to be careful that they’re not being exposed at the wrong time, so I think that the market is there, it’s just making sure that you know if they are going to make a significant investment, they’re doing it at the right time and at the right price and that’s part of our job is to make sure that we analyse all of that to make sure that it is going to be a success at the end of the day.
Susan Freeman
And Bradley, when you aren’t working, I read somewhere that extreme sports are you know something that features on your agenda, is that right?
Bradley Baker
Yes, crazy sports. Yes, I, well I guess I’m quite keen on mountaineering, done a bit of that but I’ve always been sort of intrigued by the sort of an element of danger in sport, I think it’s quite interesting, often it’s the mental challenge as well as a physical one but yes, no mountaineering is something that I absolutely love.
Susan Freeman
So you are, you’re clearly somebody who likes a challenge, I think having moved from agency to development, it…
Bradley Baker
I think challenge is probably you know writ large over a lot of us I suppose but I mean I think it’s great to be somewhere and enjoy what you’re doing but it’s more rewarding and super rewarding if you’re doing something which you feel challenged by doing, you know if you’re stepping out of your comfort zone or stepping onto a ledge at 4000 metres or whatever, that’s out of your comfort zone and into a challenging environment and when you succeed in doing that, it’s incredibly rewarding.
Susan Freeman
So, would you recommend mountain climbing to the rest of us?
Bradley Baker
I would, I would, I absolutely would because the beauty of it is that well number one it’s just he environment, it’s the most amazing environment but there are lots of different grades, I mean I’m no great mountaineer at all but you know I started humbly and worked my way up to a degree and there’s something for everybody in mountaineering, whether you’re ten years old or seventy-five years old or whatever and there’s grades for everybody and it’s a great environment, it’s a real one on one type of relationship that you’d have with your guide, I mean I always make sure I go with somebody who’s a damn sight better than I am, which isn’t difficult, to make sure that I’ve got a professional that knows what he’s doing and that way you can enjoy it and relax a bit more.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, I’m not sure it’s for me, I find sort of going up a tall building in the builders’ lift challenging enough.
Bradley Baker
Perhaps not then for you but yeah, I mean it has its moments, I’ve fallen down crevasses and been suspended in the dark and all those sort of things which is a bit hairy but lived to tell the tale and yeah.
Susan Freeman
Alright, I’ll think about that. So, Bradley, thank you, thank you very much, it’s lovely to talk to you.
Bradley Baker
Likewise Susan, thanks very much for your time.
Susan Freeman
Thank you, Bradley, for a fascinating discussion. It’s reassuring to hear that Best in Class London offices are still very alive.
So, that’s it for now. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation. Please join us for the next PropertyShe podcast interview coming very soon.