I think the UK is probably the example of Build to Rent within Europe. I think Germany might be a different situation but it’s a different kind of product but I think in Spain right now, you know we’re seeing Build to Rent starting in Ireland. There’s a lot of Build to Rent that’s going on and I think capital is really interested in Ireland and Netherlands and you know I think we’re really seeing the start of the Build to Rent market happening across Europe.
Susan Freeman
Hi I am Susan Freeman, welcome back to our PropertyShe podcast series brought to you by Mishcon de Reya, in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment. Today, I am really delighted to welcome Michela Hancock. As Managing Director for Greystar Europe, Michela focuses on expanding and strengthening Greystar’s third-party platform and strategic partnerships. She works closely with Greystar’s six country leaders in France, Germany, Ireland, The Netherlands, Spain and the UK to identify new opportunities across student, Build to Rent and senior living. Michela ensures Greystar is well positioned in the future for new client relationships and a range of acquisitions, partnerships and joint ventures, as well as leading the existing third-party platform. Michela has been a long-term advocate and champion of Build to Rent. She joined Greystar in 2015 and most recently led the UK development and construction team for two years overseeing a pipeline of over 4000 units, including Greystar’s landmark London assets, Sailmakers in Canary Wharf and Ten Degrees in Croydon. Michela is a board member of the United Kingdom Apartment Association, an advisory board member of Commercial Real Estate Finance Council and a member of the Government's Build to Rent Joint Committee and the BPF Build to Rent Sub-Committee. She is also a member of the Urban Land Institute Europe Residential Council. She is an active member of Women Talk Real Estate, Real Estate Balance, Women in Property and Commercial Real Estate Women UK. Before joining Greystar, Michela was a Director of PRS at Grainger and worked for The Bozzuto Group in Washington DC as a developer of Build to Rent communities. So, now we are going to hear from Michela Hancock and how she built her career in Build to Rent and what brought her to London in the first place.
So, good morning, Michela.
Michela Hancock
Good morning. How are you?
Susan Freeman
Yeah, I’m good and it’s really good to catch up with you because it’s been a little while with Covid lockdowns and everything else.
Michela Hancock
Absolutely, it’s been too long hasn’t it, I feel like we’ve been sort of in a bit of a black hole during Covid but I’m so happy that we’ve come out of it.
Susan Freeman
So, let’s go, let’s go straight in, as our listeners will detect, you have an American accent, so, you know, weren’t brought up here. Tell us a little bit about your background, where you were brought up and we’ll then get onto what brought you to London.
Michela Hancock
Sure. So, I grew up in Richmond, Virginia and I was raised there, stayed there for my school and then I went to university in Tennessee and then I went to my graduate school in Maryland actually, which is then what led me into real estate but I was actually in psychology and I did my undergraduate degree, so my university I majored in psychology so for four years and then I realised when I got out that I couldn’t actually find a job unless I had further education in psychology. So, I then went back to a graduate programme for three additional years and I was training to do clinical counselling and it wasn’t until the last year that we could actually practise it and I realised that I didn’t like it all so, I was basically seven years in to a study that I realised wasn’t the right career path for me and I think part of that was just that I was too close to it, I think I was taking it home at night and I couldn’t, I couldn’t leave it. I was working with children and families and it just upset me too much and I felt that I couldn’t disconnect from it and I realised I love working with people but that probably wasn’t the best choice for me as a long-term career. So, I decided to change careers at that point and I remember speaking with my family and they said, ‘why don’t you just change the type of psychology you are doing because you’ve worked this long’ and I said, ‘well, I plan on having a very long career and actually I’m just at the start so why not change now’ and I, you know, everyone said, ‘this seems crazy, I don’t think you should do it’ and I just knew, I said that, ‘I know this right, I’m going to make a change’ and I decided to go into real estate development and my family had some real estate that was left over from a business that they had sold, the operating business, and they still had some of the real estate locations around the United States and I thought originally I’d go into real estate and then help them the family business but then once I started it, I just loved it so much, it kind of took on a life of its own and here we are today so, I never really looked back.
Susan Freeman
So, that was a pretty brave decision because a lot of people would have just thought well, seven years on, I will just continue with it. So, okay, so and did you immediately go into sort of multi-family Build to Rent type businesses?
Michela Hancock
Well I did pretty soon so, I remember with basically once I realised I wanted to change and go into real estate, it wasn’t as simple as just going into it, I then had to go back and take classes and study to try to get into a graduate programme because I didn’t have a background in really finance or any of the real estate pieces that I needed a lot of people that went to this Master’s programme already had an undergraduate degree in finance or real estate so, I basically was playing catch-up to even try to get in and so, for me that was a really challenging period, I had to study constantly. I remember all I did was study for a few years of my life in that period and l learned it, I learned it well because it was all that I did. So, I basically went to all the extra help sessions, I was always trying to learn more and really did into the material and comprehend what they were teaching us and what was so great, I went to Johns Hopkins University and to their Real Estate Development programme and it was so great because we were actually taught by people that worked in development so, our professors actually worked in the field so, they had really practical knowledge that the would tell us things like this is what actually happens in a transaction and these are the kinds of things you need to look out for so, I was getting very good practical knowledge and so, part of the programme was to get an internship at the end and I knew that I wanted to go into residential and rental so, I actually was very interested in multifamily and at that time, I think development jobs were quite hard to get and people said oh you know you won’t get a development placement, that’s just impossible and I said well I will, I will, you know I will work until I get one so, I basically called up… I knew I wanted to work at this company called Bozzuto Development and I just basically called up everyone that would take my phone call there and I – I can’t believe I did that now, it’s quite, I just you know looking back, I guess I had nothing to lose and I, you know I would call – I called the CEO a few times, I’d leave him messages. Tom Bozzuto, he’s the Chairman of it, he’s a wonderful person and has become and friend mentor to me still today but I think he just finally thought I’d better talk to this lady because she won’t stop calling and I convinced him to give me an internship and then from there, they hired me on as a Development Associate and so then that’s how got my experience with multifamily and I was given parts of a project to work on and I remember I was in charge of utilities and it was slightly terrifying at first and I remember going into the rooms with all the different consultants and engineers and architects, you know, I really, it was just so overwhelming and I remember thinking will I ever feel comfortable in a room like this but I did eventually, it was just, you know it was kind of learning day by day and I had really good role models and people that taught me very well and I learned that as the developer, you know, you are kind of guiding, you’re guiding all the consultants and you’re guiding the project and you know, you have to know a little bit about every piece, enough to kind of weave it all together and I think for me I loved that and I loved seeing something go from like plans on paper to then a living, breathing project, I felt that was really fascinating and I was lucky to be able to, you know, see a few projects go from start to finish, so from finding the sites to actually building and then seeing them operational which was really powerful and I think seeing how the transformation would happen from a derelict site to something where people are excited to go to a site and it had so much energy and life and I realised that, you know, Build to Rent, multifamily, is just something that if it’s done well, it’s really a powerful, powerful community builder.
Susan Freeman
So, I have to say that shows such amazing determination that the, you know, you wanted to get into this organisation and you got there. So, one would have thought, having got in, you would continue your career with the company but as I understand it, your husband was offered the opportunity of working in London and you had to make a big decision and so, you came to London I think in the summer of 2013. You did initially work for Bozzuto.
Michela Hancock
Yeah, so, I initially… well, I remember I went into resign, sadly, because I was moving to London and I knew they didn’t have offices here so, I remember Tom Bozzuto said to me, you know what about, what about you figure out a way to be on the ground and kind of eyes and ears of what’s happening in London and report back to me on what’s going on and I thought well, that’s really interesting, I hadn’t thought about doing something like that but it was very, very interesting to me and I thought okay, I you know I’d love to try it and he said come to me with a business plan and I had a few days to do that and I pulled something together and came over here, working for Bozzuto and I was, I was really like early days on just figuring out what’s happening with Build to Rent, who’s doing what, what’s the appetite, is there capital coming into the sector, you know is there even a sector? And at that point it was really in such infant stages, I remember I came, I knew no one in the UK and I just met with a couple of organisations so, I met with the BPF and the ULI and it was wonderful because people were super friendly and I remember meeting… Ian Fletcher was one of the first people I met from the BPF and he was so kind and then he introduced me to like three or four other people in the industry and then each of those people I would meet with would introduce me to two or three others and it really is how my network just grew organically and people were always so willing to have a meeting and talk about things and I would tell them about Build to Rent and multifamily. Sorry, it wasn’t even Build to Rent at the time, it was multifamily and we hadn’t named it here yet and people said, you know, this will never happen, no one wants to rent, everyone wants to buy and I just said well how is that, how can that be if people, for many reasons, still will rent and we just don’t have good quality options to give them. How could this not be an opportunity, to build good quality rental homes for people? And you know, people just said well, everyone just wants to own but that is… that wasn’t the solution and we’re not trying to say it’s a one size fits all, we’re not saying you know you shouldn’t buy, you should only rent, we’re just saying for the period in your life when you choose to rent, for many reasons, we’d like to provide good quality options for renting and so I think that was like telling the story and really explaining that to people. It took a few years and it was a very long process but I mean now I can’t believe how momentum has changed, with how much capital is chasing good projects and good operators.
Susan Freeman
And it, I mean it is amazing, I mean it’s been ten years now, I mean at the East Village, Athletes’ Village at Stratford was retrofitted you know around 2012 so…
Michela Hancock
That’s right.
Susan Freeman
…it has been ten years. So, you arrived in London… were you expecting the multifamily, Build to Rent sector to be slightly more advanced here when you arrived or did you know that it was all kicking off?
Michela Hancock
I knew that it was less advanced but I didn’t realise where we really were in the process, I didn’t have the intricacies, I wasn’t aware of exactly what was going on and I think the challenges that we would go through in trying to, you know, influence policy and then valuation and I think just generally finding people that understood what we were trying to do and understood the vision to build thriving communities that you know Build to Rent can be a part of that and good quality should be an option for people to have and you know knowing who their landlord is and someone that’s looking out for them and wanting you know, who’s concerned with keeping their customers happy, I think that’s something that as a sector we’ve done a really good job of, you know, spreading that story and I think we’re seeing a lot of quality operators come out now and I think it’s been really great for Build to Rent as a whole in the UK.
Susan Freeman
And it must have been really useful that you had come from The States where the sector existed, the product existed and people knew what it was because you know I remember pretty, you know pretty well in the early days that there was this whole education piece and if you sat round with MPs or you sat round with local authorities, they actually didn’t know what Build to Rent, as we then called it, was, they thought it was Buy to Let, I mean…
Michela Hancock
That’s right.
Susan Freeman
…and I think there are probably still people who… because… it’s taken a while for these you know developments to come out of the ground so, people couldn’t even go and look at anything to see how it worked.
Michela Hancock
I think that was the big challenge and I think one of the points of view that we kept getting asked was like what happens when it gets sold, when it gets broken up and sold, and we were saying but if you design it properly for Built to Rent with amenities and services and onsite teams then it would become its own asset class. So I think we were seeing into the future but it was bringing people along that journey that was challenging because you are right, without having comps to look out, without having something to walk in and say this is what we’re talking about, you could show pictures and I guess you could take people to different markets where we had it but it really wasn’t the same as standing in something and saying this is what we’re trying to build. I think now that we have first generation Build to Rent projects, it’s a lot easier to sell that vision.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, because people, people can actually see and experience it. So, you joined Grainger as Development Director, a sort of a little, little time after you came to the UK. How did that come about?
Michela Hancock
I did. So, I worked for about six months for Bozzuto here and I… it was a really good experience but at a certain point I thought why… originally I was only coming here for two years and I thought it would make sense to have a little bit of experience working for a UK developer and then my plan was to go back to Maryland and that didn’t end up happening so, I met Nick Jopling, who was at Grainger and he was very passionate about the sector and talking about what Grainger was trying to do and I thought you know this would be a place that I’d like to be in to get some experience in a different country. So, I decided to join them, I was their Director PRS at the time, that was the title and we were just trying to get into the Build to Rent sector and trying to you know work through strategies and really how do we take things forward and look at a very customer centred approach and I had a great experience, I met so many people there that are still my good friends today and I learned a lot at Grainger, it was, I have some wonderful memories there, Susan, honestly, I think most of my great friends are ones I met there so, that’s been wonderful but I did meet, I met Greystar about two years later and I think what they were trying to do with their vision on Build to Rent and the fact that they were an American company and it was very similar to what I was used to, I think that really pulled me to them and I thought you know I would really like to try this opportunity and at that point it was very new here, they only had one person on the development team so I joined, was the second person to join and we really, really pretty much started from scratch so, I remember Mark Allnutt, I met him at the Chelsea Flower Show at one of the events and we really got on and I wanted to be a part of what was happening at Greystar and so, I joined two years after, so it was like two and a half years after I moved to London I joined, I joined Greystar and I’ve been here seven years. So, we’ve had a lot of growth and really exciting things happening here, I mean it’s, I remember we started out and we had Greenford and then Sailmakers and then just little by little, it grew. What we had our student platform when I joined but it just, just kept growing and there’s been amazing opportunities for you know our teams to grow and do things we never thought we’d be doing and then you know we became a Paneuropean business and there’s, that’s created even more opportunity so, when I joined I was, I guess I was kind of the second person on the Development team and I joined as a Director and then I had the opportunity to move up to Senior Director and Managing Director and then Greystar came to me and asked me if I would be interested in taking on a new opportunity, this was about two and a half years ago and I think they’re really good at like seeing new opportunities and offering people chances to take on something that maybe they wouldn’t normally have the opportunity to do and they said would you be interested in doing something different, taking on a European role to try to grow the third party platform? And I thought well that’s interesting, I’ve never thought about a European role but I’ve always tried in my career when I’ve been approached with something or when something seems a bit maybe like intimidating, to try to go for it because I think it’s really good for growth to do things that are outside your comfort zone because I was comfortable with the UK, I was leading the Development team and, but I wanted to do, I wanted to take on this new opportunity so I thought why not and I took that on and then I think a few months later, we went into lockdown, Susan, so the plans kind of trying to grow the operational side of the business for third party, I, you know we were all faced with working in lockdown and working from our rooms and what we could do on Zoom and Teams and you know actually, we were able to still grow and have good opportunities, I think everyone was willing to take meetings, virtual meetings, and trying to do business so, you know we’ve had a lot of good opportunity even through lockdown.
Susan Freeman
And did you think when you took in the new role you probably anticipated that there would be quite a lot of European travel and that you…
Michela Hancock
Yes.
Susan Freeman
And then suddenly you were having to make like new relationships sort of over Zoom but I suppose everybody was in the same, you know, in the same position but it must have made the new role that much more challenging.
Michela Hancock
Well, I think I, you are right, I definitely was planning on travel and trying to see people face to face because that’s always what I had done and how I had you know kind of grown networks and found opportunities but what I found was you know not right away because it was focussing on the new business aspect and trying to grow the business, I think at the very beginning of lockdown, you know we were just trying to kind of figure out, as everyone was, what was going on so, you know but pretty soon after that, I think once we realised we would be in this situation maybe for a while, I don’t think any of us knew how long, I did start then reaching out to people and asking them to have calls and everyone was very willing to have a call and I was just explaining Greystar’s operational platform and the experience that we had and the fact that we’re really interested to grow our third party platform and we would like to manage for other developers and investors, doing either student or Build to Rent and it’s a very large part of our business in the US and a lot of people were, you know they might not have known that story so I think it was a really good time and a good business development opportunity to have that, those months, you know I guess years now, there were two years of that almost weren’t there, to really spread that story and it was actually quite a positive time, Susan.
Susan Freeman
And as I understand it, the way Greystar operates the business in the States, it is, there is a lot of management but maybe not as much development, is that, is that right?
Michela Hancock
So, there is, there is development as well as management but the third party operations is quite a large part of what we do so, of our 800,000+ units, 540,000 of those we manage for third party institutional clients so, a large part of our business line and I think that, you know, we’re quite keen to grow that portion of the business here in Europe and I think there is a lot of opportunity because I do think the one thing that’s lagging behind, you know we have the design now for Build to Rent, I think we’ve seen a lot of good examples of product but I do think the operational piece is still very challenging and I think it’s really important to have experienced teams and experienced platforms that have operated and that know how to operate and know how to take care of their customers and keep people happy because when you have hundreds of customers, you know it’s very different operating something that you know you’re not saying goodbye as you sell, you’re in it long term, we’re long term operators and we take care of our customers and communities that we’re working in so, it’s a very different mindset and I think it’s important to have an operator that really understands that and really values creating that community and keeping your customers happy.
Susan Freeman
So, when Greystar came to the UK initially, the product didn’t exist so there probably wasn’t an option but to actually you know go in and develop the product that, you couldn’t have just come in and said we’re an operator because it just didn’t exist.
Michela Hancock
It didn’t exist. That’s right and we looked for it so when we originally came in, we looked to buy some multifamily assets and we realised there really weren’t any so, we ended up buying student and that became our chapter living portfolio and then we did our Greenford deal and then we did our Sailmakers deal and then you know it grew from there, we were able to, with Greenford, our 26 acre community there, we were able to basically design that from scratch the way we wanted to so, that’s a really good example I think of a Build to Rent community, the way we see it. And then some of our other projects, like our Sailmakers project, that was a build for a sale for forward fund development that we were able to change and make changes through planning to adapt it for Build to Rent so, some of those early projects, you know we worked really hard to make it as, you know, as appropriate as we could for our customers but there was a lot of work there, I mean there still is a lot of work but those early years, that was, it was some of the most fun times I’ve ever had working with our teams here.
Susan Freeman
And what stage have these projects reached? Are they up and running or are you still in development stage?
Michela Hancock
So, most of our projects are operational. Our Greenford project is, we have our first phase operational, second phase is coming, our Croydon project is operational, Sailmakers is operational, our Nine Elms is in development so, we have a mix of operational and in development but you know Greenford is such a large project that you know we knew that the phasing would be in the stage that it is so, everything has gone to plan but I think what’s really powerful about Greenford is, we see that community build and we’ve seen the local community also come in and be a part of our events and we have a lot of events in the summer series, we have outdoor cinemas, we have all kinds of music events, pop-up events and we see more and more community members coming as well, which is really powerful and then a lot of our residents come and that was something that it took a little while to get people to understand what we were trying to do but once they started coming, then more and more people started coming so now, you know we have hundreds of people at these events, which is amazing to see.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, absolutely, so people can actually see what the product involves and I think at Croydon, you’re using modular construction and you’ve got one of the highest modular towers in Europe, is that right?
Michela Hancock
That’s correct, that’s correct. So, that was, and we’ve also used modular at Greenford as well so we’re a big supporter of using modular but yes, Croydon is a really good example I think of how efficient and sustainable modular housing can be, you know there’s dramatically less construction waste and there’s less disruption as well for the community when you’re doing modular so, I think it’s something we’re very much in support of and I think it’s important to talk about the sustainability benefits, the carbon savings and everything that it brings to a development and I think our customers are more and more interested in that as well, in sustainability and you know for us, as long term operators, it’s very important that we educate our customers because they can do a lot as well to help to be more sustainable with things like turning off their lights when they’re not using them and just little small changes that you may not realise but they do make a big difference so I think it’s just, it’s a way of life for us, a sustainable living.
Susan Freeman
And I think that’s right because without the occupiers actually working with you, you can only do so much and they’ve got to want to be part of the decarbonisation programme as well. And how would you say that Greystar differentiates itself in this growing you know Build to Rent sector?
Michela Hancock
Sure, it’s a really good question. Well, I truly believe we have the best people and teams and I think you know we care a lot about design and we care a lot about the end product but then it’s really, it’s really the operational teams as well that are so critical that you know drive the life of that project and keep our residents happy and I think it’s so important to have happy teams and well-motivated teams and you know we do a lot with ongoing education and you know keeping people really motivated and learning you know ongoing learning and development which I think is critical for people to know where they’re going in their career path and really see a plan and see where they can go because you know people do want to know where they’re going with their careers and I think that’s really important for us as to really grow and retain talent. So I think that’s one huge differentiator of Greystar is really our people and our teams and the way, the way we like to treat our customers and all of our stakeholders so, it’s really important to us and really growing those communities from the ground up and having really, you know, really happy residents that then go on to tell other people the story of Greystar. So, because really, the best is to hear from someone that lives in a Greystar community and share that story about you know how they’re enjoying living in the community and the service they are receiving and everything that that has to offer so, I think that’s how we differentiate ourselves and there’s a lot of people coming into this market, a lot of new entrants but the thing is, this is all we do is rental housing. This is what we’ve always done and it’s what we will continue to do and so, it’s not a part of what we do, it is what we do and I think because of that, we attract people that are incredibly passionate and motivated about the sector.
Susan Freeman
Clearly, it’s a very ambitious company. I’m just looking at, you know, some of the, you know, recent announcements. I mean, the Student Roost deal for Brookfield, I mean that is, it’s enormous isn’t it?
Michela Hancock
Yes, it’s the third largest UK student housing portfolio so, it’s enormous.
Susan Freeman
And how are you going to operate that? How do you bring that into the sort of Greystar fold so to speak? I mean, it’s enormous isn’t it?
Michela Hancock
Yes, it’s the third largest UK student housing portfolio and it’s 23,000 beds and over 600 team members. So, it’s enormous.
Susan Freeman
It is and how are you going to operate that? How do you bring that into the sort of Greystar fold so to speak?
Michela Hancock
Well, you know it’s something that we have a lot of experience with and you know it’s just something where we just create, it’s this one Greystar, it’s the community that we put a lot of time into our onboarding and really making people feel comfortable and at home at Greystar and understanding our culture I think is really important and that’s what we’ll do whether it’s you know a smaller acquisition or a larger one so I think we kind of have the same ethos across the board as the way we bring people in and treat them and onboard them and so, the same with this one.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, well we’ll watch that with particular interest because at Mishcons we’ve been doing all the real estate work on the Student Roost portfolio so, I know it very well. And then there’s also the ADIA partnership which is going to be focussing on Build to Rent development around London but I mean how you find the sites for all this additional development?
Michela Hancock
I mean it’s just the way we’ve kind of always operated as we’ve you know we’ve been out there, we’re speaking with developers, we’re speaking with the brokers, we’re you know we’re just in the industry, we’re always networking and looking for opportunities and you know it’s just something that we have a very robust pipeline process, the way that we look at deals and sift through things and go through our investment committees so, you know we kind of have a well-oiled machine in the way that we look at deals but it is challenging find product I think because there’s so much competition so, things that are in the market, once they are brought to market I find there’s a lot of people making offers on these Build to Rent projects the student projects so, I mean I think again it just goes back to relationships, strength of relationships that we have and but really trying to find the right sites that are appropriate for student or Build to Rent and making sure that we have the design right and that we can operate them well.
Susan Freeman
And we hear a lot of criticism of the planning system, I mean in your experience so far has planning held up your schemes or has it been other challenges?
Michela Hancock
I think you know this is something that I always find people do talk about the planning challenges, I think there’s always challenges in development, you know development is a challenging business otherwise everyone would do it if it wasn’t, right, so whether it’s you know the design elements, construction cost, planning challenges, you know availability of land, I think there are always challenges and I think again it goes back to that relationship, Susan, I think if you can have really strong relationships at the local level with the planners and really explain to them what you’re trying to do and the type of communities you are trying to build then hopefully it will be a less painful process so, I know with Greenford we had a consent for 600 units when we acquired the site and we worked really closely with Ealing Council for eight months and we were able to turn that into almost 2000 units by working together weekly and but you know we were very clear about our vision and what we wanted to do and I think it’s just really important, you have to have a council that wants to do development with you though that’s the thing it needs to be a partnership so, I think to build the much needed homes we need, we have to take a partnership type attitude both on the council side and the developer side otherwise I think we will struggle as a market to build more homes as quickly as we need them.
Susan Freeman
And what size of sites do you look for because it sounds as if you do go for scale so that you can get all the amenities in that you need so, do the sites need to be a certain minimum size?
Michela Hancock
Well it’s a really good question, one I think I’ve been asked ever since I’ve come to this country, I mean, we do like scale because again with scale means you can then provide the amenities and the services so, you know it’s something we look 200, 300 up, I mean we don’t really have a maximum so we’ll do like at Greenford, you know we have 1300 Build to Rent units, so you know we don’t I would say 200, it doesn’t mean that wouldn’t do a site that’s less if there’s an opportunistic reason or a strategic reason to do it but I think generally, you look at sites to have that scale of 200+, it just makes it easier to provide what we’re trying to provide for our customers, which we do like to provide amenities and onsite teams but there’s many different types of product out there and I know some people have different beliefs on what they should be providing but we believe there’s a market for everyone.
Susan Freeman
Yes, if everybody was providing the same, the same product it just wouldn’t work so there are different, obviously different operators looking for you know different types of schemes. And are you, since you’re focussing on Europe, I mean are you finding that the challenges that you faced in the UK are sort of similar in Europe or is Build to Rent more advanced there because there’s been, there’s always been more of an acceptance that rental was you know was a viable alternative to buying?
Michela Hancock
I don’t think it’s ahead, I think it’s, I think the UK is probably the example of Build to Rent within Europe, I think Germany might be a different situation but it’s a different kind of product but I think in Spain right now, you know we’re seeing Build to Rent starting in Ireland, you know where there’s a lot of Build to Rent that’s going on and I think capital is really interested in Ireland and Netherlands and you know I think we’re really seeing the start of the Build to Rent market happening across Europe so I would say the UK is probably the example that people are looking to.
Susan Freeman
That’s interesting and do you think we’ll continue to call it Build to Rent because I know there was a lot of discussion and some people say well that’s fine but once we’ve built it, will we call it Built to Rent? I don’t know, do you think Build to Rent will stick?
Michela Hancock
I think it’s stuck, I mean Susan, I was one of the people that didn’t like Build to Rent because that exact argument, I remember being at some of those early round tables where we were discussing what do we call it and my comment was like, once it’s built, what, it’s not build to rent anymore but anyway I think it’s stuck and it you know the policy documents call it Build to Rent, I think it’s here to stay, I think it’s Build to Rent and it’s alright, I mean I don’t mind it, I think it gets across what we’re trying to convey to people is that this rental product and it’s built purposely for rental so, I have to say I don’t have a better option so, I think I was happy though to put my hand up and say alright I’ll vote for it.
Susan Freeman
Yes. And now it’s Build to Rent and that’s great. Now, one of the things I wanted to ask you is, how do you manage a very fulltime career with young children because you seem to, you know, do it so seamlessly and you’re there, you know you’ve managed to go to all the conferences and everything but it must be, it must be tough if you’ve got young children?
Michela Hancock
It is tough, I mean I always feel like I’m pulled in a thousand directions and I find my children so, my son, George, is turning six in July and my daughter, Anna, is turning four and I find that they need my attention more and more now so, when they were babies, I mean I think we’ve talked about this in the past but they didn’t, you know they don’t really know, they just need their basic needs to be met but now they want me to be there so, they say to me like, mom why are you going to work? When are you coming home? You know, if I’m going out at night they want to know where, why I’m going, when I’m coming home, you know it’s a very different set of expectations and they have a lot with their school that the parents are expected to be a part of, I mean so there’s a lot of multitasking. My husband, Kip, is really supportive and he does a lot as well so, between the two of us and we have really good childcare, you know we work as a team but there is always something that you know if somebody is sick, you know it kind of the cog in the wheel, it falls apart so, it’s full on and from the minute I wake up sort of at 6.00am to, till the time I go to bed, it’s just a full on day, a lot of switching back between you know being a mom and being a worker and being a wife and you know being a daughter, you know I have my family keeping in touch with in the US and trying to be a good friend and I just sometimes feel like I don’t know how to do it all but I just try to do my best at whatever I’m doing. My ethos is give your all to what you are doing in the moment.
Susan Freeman
You broke new ground when you took Anne to the Property Week resi conference in Newport so, I think she was, she was six weeks old and that really was a challenge and I mean, did that work out or is that something that you probably wouldn’t do again?
Michela Hancock
Well it is something I’d do again, I mean I was on maternity leave and I remember thinking I really wanted to go to the conference and so, I went and it was, everyone was so supportive, I mean it was hard because I was kind of going back and forth between being with her and going to some of the programmes and, but I’m glad I did it, Susan, I think it, you know it made people say oh wow, you can try to do both and I think it’s really important that it’s part of the conversation in that whatever it is that you’re doing outside of your work life, whether you have you know family obligations or you know if you’re taking care of parents or you’re taking care of children or whatever it is that you’re doing, I think it’s so important to have wider interests and you know have a work-life balance I think it doesn’t always fit neatly into a box of 9 to 5, which is why you know I took her to that conference and I think we shouldn’t hide our lives, you know you should be open about it and I think being open about the challenges and everyone has challenges and I think just talking about it, normalising it a bit, makes people realise it is okay, it’s okay to be human, you know it’s okay to say it’s been a really hard day and I found a lot over lockdown that sometimes people just needed to talk and say I’ve had a really challenging week, you know I’ve been by myself in my room all week and they really just needed to connect and I hope that we still keep doing that now that we’ve come out of this that we still check in with people and Greystar is really good at that, there’s a real focus on health and wellbeing and I think as an industry though, we shouldn’t forget the way we took care of people during lockdown, we should continue to do that and realise you know as things open back up and they’re normalising again, let’s make sure we still take care of people and make sure they’re still doing okay.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, it’s a good point because it’s amazing how quickly people forget what’s happened over the last couple of years and you’ve written about the importance of mental health and people’s wellbeing and do you think employers generally do take enough notice do you think that what, you know what we’ve been through with some lockdown people having to work from home, often on their own, has made people think a little bit more about that?
Michela Hancock
I do, I think there’s been a real shift, Susan, I think that now employers have to take notice and I think some employers probably took a lot of notice before lockdown but now I think there’s a light that’s been shined on mental health and I think you know making sure your teams and your employees are happy and their wellbeing is important, I think that is critical and you know I think that’s something like at Greystar they’ve always been really good about but there’s more and more emphasis been put on it and I think they’re really encouraging teams to talk about it with their teams as well so I think it’s really cascading down through the businesses and I think that’s happening throughout the industry, a lot of my friends in the industry are talking about the same thing. There’s a real focus on it so I think in a lot of ways Covid has been good for that because it’s really kind of taken away the taboo.
Susan Freeman
Well there have got to be some positives for Covid haven’t there. And you’re involved with quite a number of the Women in Real Estate groups and you, you know you speak at events and you know encourage you know young women coming into the industry, I mean have there been challenges for you working in what is still sort of very much a male dominated industry?
Michela Hancock
Yes, I mean there, I think there’s always challenges and sometimes when I go to events and I’m the only woman in the room or…
Susan Freeman
Does that still happen?
Michela Hancock
It sometimes does, it does sometimes happen and you know or I go to a dinner, it more happens at like smaller industry type things where there might be a dinner of fifteen people you know and it doesn’t mean that women were not invited because they were but it just happens to be that I might have been the only one to accept, you know something like that because I actually do ask when I… I notice now when I’m the only woman and I’ll ask the organiser sometimes, did other women not get invited and they’ll say no, no we invited a half and half, you know and this has always kind of been the way it’s been throughout my career, it’s just you know Susan it’s one of those things that when I went into real estate I knew there would be some challenges and I knew that it was a more male dominated industry at that point but I also think there’s a lot of opportunity that comes with that to make changes and to really just call out things that aren’t right and we’re making progress Susan, I think we are but I think it’s you know small steps but, but they’re important ones and I just think I just encourage all the women that I know and listening to this to just please go, attend events, you know try to be there in the room because we won’t make progress by not being there.
Susan Freeman
And I, I mean I love your determination because not many women would have been at that, at that conference with a six, six week old baby and I think part of the problem also is you know some people just don’t enjoy the networking side of things and you know there’s also the speaking side of it so, you do speak on a number of panels but I also know that you said in the past that you know originally when you started you didn’t like the idea of public speaking but you just made yourself do it.
Michela Hancock
I remember that, I mean it does seem like a long time ago actually but I when I first moved here I didn’t really like public speaking, I don’t know why I just didn’t have a lot of experience with it and I’m not sure, I think just lack of experience with it made me intimidated of it but I thought that was holding me back in my career and I just thought that is not good, it’s something I need to just face my fear and then I just said I’m going to just start saying yes to public speaking and the first time was absolutely terrifying, I don’t even remember when that was Susan, it was probably ten years ago but I remember being so nervous but then actually once I got up there it was really fun, I found that it’s really enjoyable, I really do enjoy it, I think you can have really good panel discussions, I had a great conversation with the UKREiiF about like building communities with like there were maybe seven panellists, it was one of the most fun panels we’d ever done and I think all the panellists really enjoyed it and you can just meet such interesting people, I have met a lot of my network through speaking opportunities, whether it’s other panellists or people that come up to me after and it’s just such a good, positive way to spread the word about what your business is doing and to really grow networks and find opportunities that way as well, I think it’s really important and important to encourage our younger team members to take on speaking opportunities and you know obviously at a certain way like you wouldn’t throw someone into speaking in front of a thousand people but I think there’s ways to nurture and train people and you know coach them along the way and I think it’s our responsibility as a leaders to try to train up the next generation of speakers so that you know they can be ambassadors for what we’re doing.
Susan Freeman
Absolutely, that’s really, that’s good advice. And one thing I wanted to ask you, since you know you are now dealing with you know real estate people across Europe, the bad image that the real industry seems to have in the UK, is that something you know that also exists in Europe or you know in The States, I mean is it a sort of universal thing that people don’t really understand what real estate developers do?
Michela Hancock
It’s an interesting question, I think there’s always people that think about oh the developer, you know and they think of the big bad developer in a way but I don’t, I think more and more you’re seeing good developers and you’re seeing communities being built and you’re seeing a lot of focus on sustainability elements and I think we’re moving away from that kind of perception of a bad developer, you know I just think now with more and more customers having choice that they’re wanting to live in good places that have good design and care about their residents and have you know nurturing onsite teams and I think, so I think there’s always challenges around I think perception of possibly development and developers but I think that is changing and I think in the UK I think we have a lot of good examples of exceptional development and developers that really care a lot about what they’re doing so I think, I do think we’re moving in the right direction Susan and I think across Europe as well there’s, there is such a large focus on sustainability and creating those communities that I think it’s the same.
Susan Freeman
No that’s positive so, yeah, sustainability and working together with the occupiers should enable us to tell some really good stories. And I have a final, final question, you clearly are you know somebody who is really determined, has anybody been a particular sort of role model or inspiration or you are just that sort of, that sort of person?
Michela Hancock
Well I think I’ve always been motivated by things that I think I can’t do so I think when people tell me I can’t do something then I really want to do it and so I think from early on when I wanted to change careers and do real estate development and everyone said no don’t change, that seems crazy, you know I think it was a real challenge and I think I’m really motivated by those challenges and you know I have met a lot of role models throughout my career and you know there’s a lot of exceptional women in think in the UK, I mean I think Helen Gordon is exceptional, the way she has run Grainger and you know there’s a lot of women that have done exceptional things and my mentor Tom Bozzuto in the US, I mean you know he’s such a wonderful developer and friend and I think once you realise, once you have relationships with people that you admire, you realise they go through similar challenges as well and it's quite comforting and I think you know I just hope that in my career I can you know I really just would like to do some good projects and you know really make changes for the better and I think you know I’m very grateful to have been a part of what’s happened in the UK in the Build to Rent industry, it’s been really exciting what’s happened, I mean if you asked me when I first came here, would we be sitting here today, you know would the sector look like it does with all the capital that wants projects, I don’t know if I would say yes but here we are and you know we can’t find projects fast enough, which is how it was in the US so it’s hugely exciting and I can’t wait to see what happens in the next five years.
Susan Freeman
Thank you very much Michela, so we’ll speak again in, well we’ll speak again before but we’ll do another interview in five years’ time and see, see where we’ve got to. So, that was great, thank you so much for your time today.
Michela Hancock
Thank you so much, it was great to talk.
Susan Freeman
Thank you, Michela, for sharing some really valuable insights into your career to date, as you continue to be a trailblazer for the new Build to Rent sector.
So, that’s it for now. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation. Please join us for the next PropertyShe podcast interview coming very soon.
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