Susan Freeman
Hi, I’m Susan Freeman. Welcome back to our PropertyShe podcast series brought to you by Mishcon de Reya in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment. Today, I am delighted to welcome Jo McNamara. Jo is Executive Vice President Europe and Asia Pacific of Oxford Properties, a Canadian Multi-National Corporation whose portfolio includes office, retail, industrial, multi-residential and hotel assets. In this role Jo is responsible for all aspects of Oxford’s business across Europe. Jo is a member of Oxford’s Executive Leadership Team, Executive Committee and Investment Committee. Jo was one of Oxford’s first team members in London joining the European Investment Team in 2010 and over the past decade has contributed to and led many of the organisations most significant investment and development transactions. Jo was most recently responsible for the operating performance of Oxford’s European business and leadership of their 40 plus person European Team. Prior to joining Oxford, Jo worked in investments and development at leading real estate companies, she has a BSE in Maths from Cardiff University and an MSC in International Real Estate from Oxford Brookes University. So now we are going to hear from Jo McNamara about her new role at Oxford Properties and the strategy behind the raft of deals that she’s overseen since she stepped up to Executive Vice President. Jo, welcome and it’s fantastic to be talking to you this morning. As of October last year you were promoted to Executive Vice President Europe and Asia Pacific for Oxford Properties after I think about 11 years with the business. But I really wanted to know was, what made you think about real estate as a career in the first place?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah hi and thank you for having me. I would say that I fell into real estate actually. I came from a small industrial town in South Wales, real estate wasn’t part of my upbringing. I went to a comprehensive state school and real estate was never discussed. However, I did a core sort of subject in, in mathematics and loved, I’ve always loved numbers but I’d always loved people as well and so the more and more I tried to find a role that satisfied both my enjoyment of numbers and investing but also was something real and tangible and there was a huge focus on people and relationships and the more people I spoke to the more I kept hearing the name or the words of real estate and property. I think on the sort of personal side as well, my mum was a single mum so she, and we moved a number of times during my childhood so I was used to moving and my mum used to do up kitchens and bathrooms and we’d move on again so it was something that I’d kind of lived with personally as well so yeah, for me it was, it was a job that I ended up just having a work experience, I got lucky enough to get work experience in Cardiff with ETZ and then they, they put me on to their graduate scheme and then it was onwards and upwards from there on in.
Susan Freeman
So in, in the new role you share responsibility with David Matherson because I think you were both promoted to the Executive Vice President role. How do you, how do you split the role?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah great question. So David and I have worked together for almost now 8 or 9 years and we are very complimentary in terms of our skill sets and focus and so what happened was, or the way we split it is it’s very clear in terms of accountability so I look after investment provisions for Europe, David does the same for Asia but we, we have a team together so we, we, the team has the opportunity to look at deals and investments across Europe and Asia and so we really share responsibility for management of the team and giving the team as much opportunity as we can for growth and ideas and actually you know, for us as a global business getting people who have experience across the globe and understanding the difference between you know, a high growth market across Asia and lower grade markets in Europe and just how you generate returns from each, each different market and what you know, what are the key learnings so it is working really well. David and I are you know, a really strong partnership, we like to value each other and you know we basically come at a deal and say look make holes in it for me and what’s not good, we feel that we just make better decisions that way but yeah, it, it was a joint decision. We could have split it completely but we felt that it was just better for our team to be joined.
Susan Freeman
No it must be amazing sort of cross fertilisation of experience and ideas you know, across the globe. So Oxford is a real estate arm of Omers which is one of the largest Canadian Pension Funds so there is amazing international reach. So I just wondered you know, overall how big is the portfolio and how is it divided between the different regions?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah sure so Oxford is owned by Omers as you said which is a defined pension plan that has almost a hundred billion in net assets, diversified across a global portfolio of public markets, real estate, infrastructure etcetera. Oxford is a business, a real estate business as you say globally. Our total AUM today is about 50 million euros and we are split about 20%, its actually 18% in Europe, about 10% in Asia and the rest in North America split about 30% in the US and the rest in Canada. We are diversified across eight different sectors, office, retail, industrial, hotels, residential, life science and you know we invest across the stack so we invest with equity, we invest with credit investment business and across four continents so we are very, very diversified and we really combine the global form expertise with the local trends and the local expertise we do try to put people on platforms on the ground as you will have seen us do.
Susan Freeman
That is really useful to have that context because you seem to have been on an absolute roll since you took up the new, new role. There’s, there seems to have been a number of newsworthy deals and a real shift in the focus of your portfolio because I think at one time it was almost 100% offices and that is changing very fast so I wondered if we could just talk a little bit about you know, the new focuses and you know, some of the deals. I don’t think we are going to get to all of them in the time that we’ve got for the conversation but just starting with life sciences that you mentioned which is now a key focus but you know, that only started a few years ago. As I understand it your first Oxford Properties investment in life sciences was in, in 2017 and even in the last couple of weeks I think you’ve bought a Cambridge science park which is let to Astrazeneca. Can you just tell us a little bit about your life science strategy and why you are starting in the UK before the rest of Europe?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah, no happy to look firstly, yeah we’ve been really busy recently and I think a lot of that has got to do with a very clear strategy and yes you know, it is a little different to what it was when I first started at Oxford. The real goal was to diversify out of Canada and to put into context, I was the third person in the European office so and that would be the European office across all sectors so you know, from 2010 the business has grown exponentially globally so our job at the time was to just to really get money into different locations and it was a global focus and now as you say, it’s to diversify the European portfolio and make it 9.44 businesses so right so that’s why you will see a big shift but Oxford generally have always invested across multi-sectors and so it’s not as new and we have a phrase which is you know ‘think global, act local’ so it really is we do try to bring that to life as much as possible and life sciences is a really good example of that because a lot of our team in the US are based in Boston and with you know, Boston and you know the Cambridge location in Boston with MIT, we were you know, witnessing live the teams, witnessing live what was happening and the changes in the life science industry where their focus on delivering you know, life changing innovations across the health sector and we really wanted to be that innovative business that could be a partner to those companies from a real estate standpoint because we fundamentally believe in the sector and the tail winds of that sector. So what we do is we try to create environments and try to really speak to the customers to figure out what it is they want and need and what we are doing is investing as much as we can into all locations across the US and now as you rightly say, in the UK and there’s really not a huge amount of science in it other than the fact that it’s very focused on the locations where there are, where there is talent and we, you know the UK wonderfully having two of the best universities in the world in Oxford and Cambridge for us, those were one of the locations that were prime for us and there are some locations in, in London also and others in Europe but I think you know, we are following not only tenants but also the venture capital. We are very fortunate that we have owners as our sponsor so we can link the owner’s venture capital team where are they looking and, and we try and follow both capital and yeah where the tenants are wanting to go. So we have a, I think we have over 3.3 million square feet now across the US and the UK and it is a huge sector for us and a priority for us and I will hope that you will see us do more and more.
Susan Freeman
Okay so there’ll be more money going into life sciences across, across Europe in the next few, next few years. So another key focus is European logistics and again I, I think that is a relatively recent focus. I think the first investment was, was only in 2018. So what, what proportion of the portfolio is logistics and how much are you planning to invest?
Joanne McNamara
So globally it’s quite balanced, globally about 20% of our portfolio is in, is in logistics or industrial building. In Europe however as I said, you know we have started seeing, you know focussed on getting capital out and 12.51 and so it still remains a relatively sort of less than 5% relatively small amount of our European portfolio however as you rightly state you know that, we have been seeking to grow that and our initial investments have been in the more, the bigger box space where we have an investment with GLP but you know more recently at the end of last year we did a partnership near Heathrow with RCP which is a development and you know, the obvious big game changer for us and fantastic, strategic 13.25 deal with the acquisition of the M7 business which as you know as yet to get full or final from the FCA but that’s on the assumption that that will happen, will be a fantastic way for us to enter this market on the grander scale.
Susan Freeman
So you’re thinking with, with M7 was that rather than just acquire sites individually there was you know, added value in, in acquiring the business and what was it about the M7 real estate business that appealed to you?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah. So I think a couple of things you know, we are a global real estate investor but we are also a builder of businesses and I think for a long time surprisingly maybe through Covid, capital was pre, you now 2008, 9, 10, 11 capital was really our competitive advantage. We, we came of that, we had a lot more capital than others and we made a lot of return for our pensioners by utilising that, that competitive advantage. Fast forward to 2020 and there’s an awful lot of capital in the world and so really the competitive advantage is, is the operations, boots on the ground, the ability to unlock off market deals and really to, you know, as you look at the non enlarged scale eight way city offices you really kind of have to roll your sleeves up and do smaller deals and, and find, find deals to aggregate to a certain size and so the attraction of M7 who are a world class investor and operator, putting them together with our capital base which is something that appealed to them and then you know, also having the right culture between the teams, two teams but not to win but really want to create both economic and social value you know, creating something for the long term and leveraging our global expertise and networks with the acquisition of IDI in North America and EFR, our position in that in Asia and just being able to create that network for the business I think was appealing for M7 so you know it’s, for us it’s being able to have those boots on the ground within a business that is super successful and, and really quite innovative in many ways so yeah, it was a no brainer for us yeah.
Susan Freeman
That’s great and then turning to residential and Get Living so obviously residential build to rent is another sector that you, you’ve been focussing on and what again, what was your thinking, why did you decide to invest in Get Living rather than you know, go about buying your own sites and maybe developing them?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah again it’s a similar thesis really, it’s about having that, that real boots on the ground which whether it’s investing or whether it’s the custom, the access to the customer. The more, I don’t know if you would call residential an alternative asset class anymore but these asset classes that require more operational skillsets we really want to be close to that and utilise our global experience. We have over 10,000 multifamily unit in North America, we have systems, we have technology, we just felt that we had a unique position to be able to bring, get it moving and the diversity of the team have done a fantastic job but really to bring it into from a very new asset class into something a little bit more mainstream and I think we are witnessing that now the amount 17.20 into the, into the space which is great for us because it just becomes a real sector and you know in 2018 when we did the deal there was a lot of question around would build to rent be something that was here to stay and I think the answer to that is a yes.
Susan Freeman
It’s amazing that it’s taken so long. At Mishcon’s we have been acting you know for Delancey and Get Living you know, right from the start at Stratford so that goes back to the you know, 2010 and before and you know, we are 10 years on now and you are absolutely right, at the beginning I mean you know we were you know, it was the first life scale rental development in the country and it was you know, really rethinking you know how you set something like that up but you know, 10 years on you know as you say, there doesn’t seem to be a question you know, that is an asset class we need.
Joanne McNamara
And it’s fascinating because we see it now in Australia, you know we are building a bit to family in Australia and in lots of countries, developed countries, the asset class doesn’t exist however, which is so interesting when you look at how developed it is in Germany and in the US for example so even the types of things that, that we feel given our global reach and that the breadth of fields and investments and operating businesses that we have access to, that we believe is our competitive advantage now, not, not only the capital that we have.
Susan Freeman
And is Get Living seeing more opportunities in the wake of, of the pandemic because you know, at the beginning when everybody was locked down and it was you know, people were frightened of being with other people but now it seems to have sort of swung, swung the other way, people want the sort of facilities and the flexibility that build to rent offers?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah. I think Get Living is definitely seeing more opportunities and you know, the operating statistics from the business have really out performed what we had initially assumed during the pandemic you know, from whether it’s rent collection or occupation, occupational statistics you know, they’ve really out performed but I would say just the pure ability to have the data that we have because we’ll probably as it is you rightly said, you know it was the first real buildings in Stratford in the entire country so for us we’ve got data going back a long, long time and we can analyse that data and then we can make really smart decisions in terms of how we invest in the future. Also the business is very well capitalised with now investors like Allianz and Alecta and LCP with partners with us so we have, we have a huge amount of capital, we have a lot of data where innovating all the time in terms of technology usage and you know, whether that’s through the MNC or actually you know, how we, how we alternate and digitise our platforms for the customer. We are finding that you know, we can make our returns make more sense than, than necessary other scan. Yeah it’s great.
Susan Freeman
So we’ll come back to data and technology in a minute and I just, I mean first of all are there other sectors that you could tell us about that you may be looking at or, or is everything under, under wraps for the moment?
Joanne McNamara
Look we are always looking, I think there is some interesting data coming through in the content creation space so we are quite interested in studios. We are also looking at data centres that are more on a global scale and I think we are obviously not the first to look at that but I think that has got more to go and so you know, it’s not well and done, we are constantly thinking about what’s next, what’s coming, what are the impacts of Covid and what the impacts of post-Covid you know, we have as you know a very diversified portfolio so offices won’t be the only you know, we won’t not do offices, they’ll continue to be a core element of our portfolio and then you know even things that are retail but that are you know, could be easily converted or can be easily used for e-commerce, you know the things that we think will come through in the future so there is nothing that really is off limits to be honest. We can generate a risk, a strong risk 21.57.
Susan Freeman
So you mentioned, you mentioned offices and of course Oxford have been involved in some key office developments in London such as the Cheese Grater and the Post Building and I also of course I think St James’ Market with the Crown Estate, some, some you know, really you know fabulous developments and I just wondered what, what Oxford’s approach is to development because you know there seems to be a really high standard there?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah absolutely, development is in the heart of what we do. I think something that does differentiate us is that we’ve never been afraid of development. Oxford was in an office development company when it was you know, as a public company in Toronto back pre-2001 so that’s, it’s always had development in its DNA. We develop now across all eight sectors that 23.02. We really focus on pioneering new technology so sustainability has been EE focussed by us for you know, one or two years. Technology and wellbeing has been on the agenda and so you know, learning and having a focus to development makes you think about the future so I think for us we, we, it will continue to be something that is key to us and you will see us doing it across sectors so yeah, you know life science, industrial, office, every sector, development will be key. I think probably worth you know 23.41 on ESG and the role that that plays with, with development and just, just to give you some stats, Oxford in 2020 we reduced our carbon emissions since 2015 by 35%, we are in the top 7% of the GRESB listings, we have 90% of our portfolio with a green building certification and we won an award in 2021 for the most innovative companies from Fast Companies so you know, examples such as using digital twins when we do develop, it’s amazing the difference that that can make to your, how sustainable you can actually make a building. I think you know, buildings 24.36 and lighting, everything runs in a silo unless you use a digital twin and then it all becomes, it comes to light and you can actually really figure out how the building’s going to get used and then really work out how you would use carbon and emissions so you know whether its digital twins, whether it’s automating functions, whether it’s using data and AI, we’re really focussed on that and development we see as just another part of that forward future looking piece of our business.
Susan Freeman
So obviously an important part of all this is that your occupiers will work with you in reducing carbon emissions and I hear you know, different things from you know, developers and landlords in terms of how far occupiers are prepared to go to help reduce those costs and collaborate with, with the landlord. I mean do you find that that’s a problem and is there any difference across you know, different cultures, different countries?
Joanne McNamara
A great question. I, I would say that over the past, maybe only 12 months we’ve seen a marked changed. There used to be a bit of a debate as to whether our customers would want what we were seeking to provide and you know we work with partners like The Crown Estate and, and we really are trying to be cutting edge on this and for a long time they wouldn’t debate but it feels like the last 12 months given that we are not having that debate anywhere near as often across sectors even and it you know, it feels that customers have come right up to meet us and sometimes even asking us to do more. So I would say we have actually reached that inflection point as my experience but I am talking mostly from my experience which is European and it is a great question and I don’t know the answer as to whether that’s different in different parts of the globe so something for me to think about.
Susan Freeman
Yeah, it’s an interesting one isn’t it?
Joanne McNamara
It really is.
Susan Freeman
And Jo you mentioned data and you know, clearly it is an important part of your decision making now. How are you using it and do you think the real estate sector is ready to share data as you know, in the past a lot of people have benefitted from the general opacity of the sector? Do you think it’s something we have come to terms with?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah it’s another great question. We are investing an enormous amount into it and I think any business that doesn’t will fall behind so whether people are ready or not I think is a different question Susan, it’s reminded me of a meeting I went to, I’d say probably 6 years maybe 7 years ago where I was sat in a room mostly men, we’ll come back to that but I was sat in a room and I was sat next to somebody and we were debating the pros and cons of having you know, all of the data transparency on deals just deals, straight forward investment deals and the comment came that they wished that the internet had never been invented which is quite amusing now but it was like, that’s my, that’s my value, that’s what I bring because I know that and that mind-set in my view is so short term and archaic because it’s not about keeping that and if the start-up companies have told you anything in this 28.37 it’s about collaboration and getting the best ideas out there and then building on those ideas and for me that’s where the real estate business has got to get to. I do think most businesses are there. There’s still a huge amount of investment that’s needed to use the data properly and that is where we are really, really focussed which is how do we take this data and take insights from it and make better decisions. Collecting data and having a data warehouse is not enough, you need to then employ your data scientist and analysts to then figure out what, what do you actually know from this and why can we be smarter in the future. So for me it’s a combination of people and data but I think that the real estate industry has a long way to go but I hope that that archaic mind-set is pretty much gone.
Susan Freeman
I hope so, I think it will take a little while to eliminate it and so do you employ a lot of data scientists to make sure that the data that you’re collecting is, is…
Joanne McNamara
We do.
Susan Freeman
…is as helpful as it can be?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah we do, we have a team. So we, we recruited Dean Hopkins who’s our COO back in 2018 I believe, maybe ’17 and he has been instrumental in building a team for us across data technology and we have, I don’t know the actual numbers but we have an enormous team now, data scientists now you know, everything from using data to figure out you know, how buildings are used and which buildings are going to out perform in a sector and we’ve used that in Australia, we’ve used that in, in the US, we’ve used that in the UK on a life science buy to figure out and it takes things like Uber traffic data, I mean obviously with the, with the pandemic a lot of the data is a little bit impacted but it uses all sorts of different data and then it brings it together but yes, the answer to your question we have a very, very big team and we are going to invest more and more in that.
Susan Freeman
So you touched on the question of men round the table and I am sure you have spent a lot of time sitting round the table with men rather than, the women but we do beat ourselves up in real estate for not attracting enough talented women and I just wondered whether you had found being a woman a benefit or a disadvantage as you’ve worked your way up the ranks and also you know, whether the experience of lockdown and having to work differently working from home has affected your views?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah. I think I’ve been, I think everyone would say this. I’ve been very lucky, I haven’t found it a benefit or a disadvantage often but there are definitely exceptions to that so I have for most of my career grown up at Oxford. I did have Bowles before that but I was very junior in those roles and I think at the junior level a lot of businesses are pretty well represented. At Oxford I’ve been, I was lucky enough that I’ve worked with people who just focussed on the output and not what was really, who was doing it or how it was being done, it was the output so you know, I really haven’t benefited from being in a business like that and I you know, I talked, I do a lot of mentoring and I say to people all the time you know, one of the key reasons I went to Oxford was (1) that they had capital when not a lot of other people did but (2) that, that the business is very multi-cultural and Canada as a country is also very multi-cultural so it was a big attraction for me and working anywhere that doesn’t have that I think could be very difficult so I do, do think that’s a good point to bring out. I have had moments though and, either from when it’s being in a room with 150 people and you’re the only female and just trying to get yourself motivated to go and have conversations when you just feel like you don’t belong. To being told, you know, lots of times that I should do things differently and everyone having an opinion on me because I’m probably the only one there that is female so everyone’s got a comment to make and I think that took a while to get used to and just to accept. But I, you know, I think it’s really a mind-set thing, you’ve just got to shut it down. If somebody makes you feel that you’re different or says something, I just shut it down. When people say, oh how do you do it, how do you have children and work and I just think actually, how do you do it, how do you have children and work you know, I just, I just try and push back and say, I am no different to you, we’re all the same. That being said, I will say for all the parents out there that lockdown will have had an impact. I love that I now am able to see my children a little more as I don’t have to commute and I think that any business that forces people back 100% of the time to the office and doesn’t allow flexibility, I think they might gain a little bit in terms of you know, people connecting as I do think people miss the office and that connection but where they gain a tiny bit in that I think they will lose tenfold on the won’t attract the 34.25. I personally wouldn’t go to a business that insisted that you were in the office all the time and I think the benefit of diversity and that diversity of thought will outweigh the benefit of having a 100% of your time in the office.
Susan Freeman
It will be interesting to see how it, how it pans out so there’s a report out today saying people are going to be back five days a week within the next two years which just goes so counter to what a lot of people are saying so we will, we will see. And do you have any advice for women in real estate who want to reach the top, who are ambitious you know, what to do, what not to do?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah. I, everything I do. I do a lot of mentoring. I think number 1, you’ve really got to be passionate and you’ve got to put your job at the front and it’s got to be unbelievably important to you if you want to make it. You’ve actually got to find a job you love and you’ve got to put the hard work in because there is no substitute for the hard work but if you do enjoy it, it’s a much easier thing to do and that, you know those compromises you have to make don’t feel as hard when you are actually doing something you want to do so number 1 I think is that. Number 2, I’d say self-awareness, ensure you’re working on it. Know your strength and tell people what they are and don’t be afraid to and don’t shy away from being good at something, just acknowledge that you are good at it and, and really put yourself up front but know your development areas as well and work on them and not only self-awareness but awareness of others. Figuring out strengths and development areas of others and being able to really develop people will make you into somebody that people want to follow and that’s important. I think the third pieces is, is transparency you know, I think of culture where you are transparent and if people don’t agree with you making that okay for them to call that out. That psychological safety piece, I think that’s really important as if you want to make it to the top you’ve got to be able to do that. Number 4, these are not in any particular order, is networking, you’ve got to love it. Susan you are one of the best I know at this but if you don’t network in a business that is a real estate business but it’s a people business, you don’t network you’re not getting to the top so if you’re sat behind your desk doing an unbelievable job but you’re not networking you’re not doing the full job so pick up the phone, attend the event even if you are the only female, pluck up the courage, go and speak to people even if it’s virtually which we are dealing with at the moment so just make the time to do that and then accept like from a personal female thing, accept compromises, you don’t have to always be brilliant at everything. Whether that’s being at home with your children and you have a bad day or whether that’s being at work and you know, something goes wrong and you can’t do it, like be okay with it, don’t kill yourself and don’t try and kind of be absolutely brilliant at everything, accept that you are balancing so there will be times when you are flying at work and home’s not great or vice versa. But accept that you have, you decided to do that so that’s okay. I think those are my five points.
Susan Freeman
That’s really, that’s really useful because I think women do have a tendency to want to be able to do everything brilliantly and to feel bad if you know, they can’t manage you know, running an amazing home as well as you know being at the top of their game at, at work and I am glad you mentioned the networking and thank you for your comments but I mean that has been quite challenging you know, during the last year to learn the completely new skill of networking remotely but I mean it can be done, it’s just you know, I wonder how long it takes to build up that you know that same relationship of trust when you don’t actually meet, meet the person but…
Joanne McNamara
Yeah I agree. One thing I would say as well is as a woman I do try and bring other women to the networking events with me so like really supporting the women and that is not a, that is not that I don’t support the men because of course I do but the men get invited automatically so I make a point of when I’m doing something, make sure that the girls in whichever team it is, and if I meet a great female in my mentoring then I put them in contact with someone else so you know, networking and also helping other networking is a massive thing for me.
Susan Freeman
Yeah it’s a very, that’s a very, very good point and hopefully we will get back to networking soon.
Joanne McNamara
Yeah real networking is, is a lot more fun I’ve got to say so you know, it’s important to do the online but I think even if its hybrid working whatever you are doing when you get back to the office making sure you spend some time for networking 40.05.
Susan Freeman
I think that’s, I think that’s pretty good advice and obviously we touched on this but do you think the real estate sector is doing enough to encourage people from different backgrounds to come into the, into the sector. I mean I think one of the problems is that the sector isn’t seen as you know, being at the cutting edge, it’s sometimes seen as being a bit of a dinosaur, it hasn’t got a great image and we are all fighting, you know, to get bright, young people you know to come in but is there anything else we could be doing to actually you know, make people think about it as a possibility rather than just passing it over?
Joanne McNamara
Yeah I, look I don’t think the industry is doing enough but it will be yet to be seen right so I think, I think this has been a real leveller because we are all at home and we are all on the same sort of level and we can’t, you can’t really, you can only do so much over a screen so I think that the play here is it will, it will be really interesting to see those businesses that make people come back 100% of the time, I, I, that will I think be a very interesting stat in 2 years’ time. I think anyone we’ve managed to attract from different sectors, we’ve tried to say to them if you can prove to people that you are open minded to change, now not everyone in the industry is going to do this but if you can, there is some really low hanging fruits that people can come in and so it’s really attracting people by saying, yes we are a bit of a dinosaur but look what you can do with some small changes and that should attract people because I don’t know about you but you know, going into, stepping into someone’s shoes when they’ve done an amazing job is more daunting than stepping into someone’s shoes when you think, actually I can do this, this, this and this and make a big difference without, without really having to break a sweat so that’s the sell that we put on it to people just to say, look we can give you absolute confidence that we are up for change and by the way you know, once you look under the hood there’s lots of the easy low hanging fruit so come with us and help us move forward but the plans will be whether the people at the top want to be written, whether it’s IND or whether it’s you know, getting people from the tech world or the life science world or the data centre world or any industry, whatever industry it is to attract those people you’ve really got to convince them that you are up for change so it is whether you can do that from the top and it’s got to come from the top.
Susan Freeman
I suppose it’s a question of getting into schools, universities and just talking to people about it and the opportunity to shape you know, the places that people are living in and working in and I mean it’s so fundamental to the way we all, we all live. You would think that it would actually be up there as you know, a real career opportunity for people.
Joanne McNamara
Yeah, look it really is something I kind of do quite a lot of work with 43.20 Property, given the background that I explained to you that I had and I am very passionate about getting different types of people in to real estate. It’s 43.30 though you’ve got to go from grassroots and you then have to really filter in from the top as well so it, it does require you know, work from both sides but I, I, you know, I’m a firm, firm believer in, in the nudge effect which is just do a little bit and a little bit and a little bit and eventually you will make a difference and there will be an inflection point and that has started to come with ESG. It’s not quite there with IND but its coming and we are seeing a big change. I hope that that doesn’t go backwards, I am nervous that that will go backwards but let’s see and I think in terms of attracting other, other sort of skill sets the reality is that there’s so much focus on alternative asset classes in real estate that those that don’t embrace this will fall behind so I think it will you know, reach its inflection point.
Susan Freeman
I hope so. So Jo, you, you have given some really good and comprehensive advice to people coming up through the industry and I just wondered as you worked your way up, what was the best advice that you were given or, or is there anything that stood out as really bad advice?
Joanne McNamara
That’s quite funny. I yeah, that’s a great question. So the best advice I’ve ever had is from my nan who you know, just always said to me, just treat people the way you’d want to be treated, so you know, I think a fundamental belief in, in being kind and doing the right thing. Not necessarily treating everyone equally but treating people fairly and, and doing what’s right. That sort of stood me great stead my entire life. Not that I’ve always managed to do it just to be clear, we’ve made some mistakes along the way but I think in terms of advice from a career standpoint I think I had a, had a moment where I was almost at executive level but I wasn’t quite there and I’d had you know, young children and I wasn’t sure I was going to get there and the best advice I ever received was from a lady in Canada and she just kept hammering home to me that I needed to be myself. I needed to not try to be what I thought I needed to be because every time I tried to be what I thought I needed to be it wasn’t authentic and I messed it up and I had this enormous sort of fear and I was crippled by you know being really afraid and she just brought my confidence up and up and up and kept saying, you’ve done this, you’ve done this, you’ve done this, be yourself, be yourself. She actually recommended the book Presence by Amy Cuddy who I recommend this book to lots of people that I mentor but just being yourself and as I said to you earlier, being okay with saying actually I’m good at this, that made an enormous impact on whether I was going to ever get to the, to the executive level and I did get to the executive level after I had some time with her and I you know, can’t thank her enough.
Susan Freeman
That’s great and so I think let’s stop there and I just want to say a really big thank you to you because our listeners won’t know, you, you were in A&E with your son last night who has a broken arm and didn’t get any sleep so I think it is a fantastic example of how good women are at multi-taking. So thank you so much Jo for talking to me today, that’s been really great, thank you.
Joanne McNamara
Thanks Susan.
Susan Freeman
Thank you so much Jo for talking to us about your role at Oxford Properties and the whirlwind of ground breaking deals your masterminding as you shift your portfolio into new real estate sectors.
So, that’s it for now. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation. Please join us for the next PropertyShe podcast interview coming very soon.
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